Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)

[CallmePaul]

Hello Mumsnet, 1st poster here.

So I'm the man in question here, my 4yr old girl needed the loo in a big store today, went into the men's, stinky & horrible & the only 1 available cubicle is engaged, the disabled one is locked & my little one is busting.
I opened the ladies door, wow much nicer than the men's! I asked loudly if it was OK if a man came in with his little girl to the loo, got an OK from a cubicle, business attended to.

Washing her & my hands afterwards I got a pretty loud tut & mumble of humph womans toilets, from a lady who just entered, I get it, I'm a bloke in a ladies loos, I really shouldn't be in there.

I've never taken her in the ladies before, always the men's & some pretty nasty loos at times.

So acceptable behaviour from me or was I out of order?

Because they are locked to be reserved for people who need them! They were locked onto a radar system but now so many people are abusing that thinking they are entitled to use them when they aren’t disabled (just look at posts on here of people buying keys when they say they aren’t disabled) they are now having to find new ways to lock changing places toilets to stop entitled parents thinking “wow what a lovely change table for my toddler”. This can mean severely disabled people waiting long periods for staff to come and unlock them, having to plan outings weeks in advance as they have to apply for a particular key for a particular toilet or be provided with the code.

Part of the social convention that we don't use the disabled loos unless we are disabled if standard loos are available is to grant swift access to people with disabling continence problems, such as severe IBS. If the disabled loo is locked and one has to wait for staff to arrive, it rather defeats the purpose of everyone else not using them.

I agree that women were socialised to not speak out. But this man did nothing wrong!! He was in an urgent situation and he did the right thing for his DAUGHTER. What if the daughter had soiled herself because he’d felt too nervous to go into the women’s loo? You would be telling him to protect his daughters dignity. To ‘grow a pair’ and put his child first. We want dads who are thoughtful and sensitive to their child’s needs.

I don’t have any kids, so excuse my naivety here - but what’s the norm? Dads must have to take their little girls to the loo regularly when they’re out and about. Is it usually expected that they take them to the men’s? Seems more weird to me for little girls to have to walk past men using urinals?

So 94% are not. Possibly more. MOST men range from irritating to wonderful. They are diverse, with complex emotions, thoughts and skills, just like women. Not the same in terms of experience of privilege and oppression though.

As an English born person, it is not my fault how the English treated the Welsh and I expect to be treated with the same amount of respect as a Welsh born person when in Wales. As a white person, I am not responsible for what happened historically to people of colour. I shouldn’t be judged by the actions of the shittiest people in my ‘group’. It is, of course my responsibility to be aware of this history, be aware of my privilege and the ongoing oppression or stigma and to do my best to fight that and be a good ally, but I should not be treated badly, ridiculed and have nefarious interpretations of my behaviour based on the shitiest members of my group.

We can’t treat all men as potential rapists and abusers just because the shitiest men do the shitiest things.

The fear left by trauma is very real and often debilitating but can be completely irrational. If you have been bitten badly by a snake, you might develop a very strong fear reaction to sticks on the path on a walk. The answer isn’t to get rid of all sticks on paths, it’s to notice the fear, work out where it’s come from and find ways to keep walking if that’s important to you. There will always be snakes who bite, there will always be some humans that harm. But on the whole snakes leave us alone and most humans are ok, or on occasion wonderful.

There is, of course, a need to change society so that women are and feel safer and there are risks to being a woman - in this case, however, any fear would be irrational (understandable in the context of trauma - but still irrational). To leave a child to soil themselves to protect someone from feeling unnecessary (but very understandable) fear would be irrational and shouldn’t organise the behaviour of a dad who is protecting his DAUGHTER’s dignity.

Women haven't had to 'budge up' if the pool has family spaces, are they?
Or have they?
You seem a bit confused.
Not confused at all.

Some people on Mumsnet think that their sons should always be in female changing because of problems in the men's changing. The message it sends to girls is that their discomfort and space doesn't matter and they should budge up.

I won't put girls or my son in that position.

We will choose somewhere with family changing.

Same on unisex facilities. I personally don't mind using most unisex facilities if they're designed with appropriate privacy. If they're marked as unisex that anyone (male or female) can decide if they're happy with that.
If a facility is identified as single sex (male or female) it is reasonable for people of that sex to expect the facility to be single sex.

I don’t have any kids, so excuse my naivety here - but what’s the norm?

You don’t need to have kids to know that men don’t get to go into the women’s toilets just because they have a daughter. 🙄 Do you not use public toilets ever? If you do, you must notice that they’re not full of little girls accompanied by their fathers.

At 4 your dd should be able to wait until the cubicle is free. It's not OK for a man to go into the ladies. Ever. When women can't trust that men won't be in out private spaces, some of us don't go out. You behaved badly.

This is the stage we are at. Society has shifted and now we have more and more men taking on parenting responsibilities- which is great! Toilets are often still in the same mode as when it was women doing all the childcare. My DH often had this dilemma. When DC were in nappies he would find that the changing tables were in the womens toilets. They are often in the easy access toilets now thank goodness.

It’s often a case of picking the lesser of two evils I think. Does the adult go into the wrong toilet to fit with the gender of the child or vice versa. In this case it was the only option in an urgent situation. But even if the cubical in the men’s wasn’t unavailable I think I’d still prefer the little girl not to have to walk past men peeing into urinals.

Mners are weird thinking it's better a 4 year old girl uses a mens toilet full of men with their penises out weeing, is better than a man accompanying said child to the women's toilets. What are they afraid of? 🙄

You don’t have kids then? You never struggled with toileting as a child then? You were holding it in and using a toilet correctly from north eh?!

This is an appalling attitude to a 4 year old GIRL who was at risk of soiling herself. Way to go encouraging the next generation of feminists!

I know! I’m a feminist. I’ve been sexually assaulted by a man in a public space. I think women’s rights and safety are a massive concern.

But this is just ridiculous! Embarrassing to be associated with.

I'd be more uncomfortable taking my daughter into a men's bathroom if men are using urinals.

Ignore the tut tuts and I think it's perfectly fine to use the ladies bathroom especially given the unavailability of a cubicle and the state of the mens'.

HE TRIED THE MENS AND THE CUBICLE WASN’T AVAILABLE!! Do you think he should have let his DAUGHTER soil herself?

It's fine. Much better than going to the gents past men using urinals. Just shout that you're coming in. Or, better, teach her to go by her self.

For those saying at 4 they are using toilets on their own at nursery and school they can manage in a public bathroom seem to be missing that nurseries and school have child sized toilets not adult sized.
My daughter is 3 but a 1st percentile child so is the size of an 18 month old, without a step or an adult to lift her up there is no chance of her sitting on a adult toilet. This probably will be the case until she is 5 or 6 based on her expected growth.

I also would not be happy with 4 year old going into a toilet without an adult they knew. Any adult, male or female can cause harm or make a child feel comfortable

BottleShipDown
We had the same sort of issues when DH was taking DC out. Thankfully enough men have been raising the issue so that changing facilities have improved.

Men need to sort out the issues in men's spaces in my opinion. The more that do, the better.

*HE TRIED THE MENS AND THE CUBICLE WASN’T AVAILABLE!! Do you think he should have let his DAUGHTER soil herself?

Why are you chatting rubbish and SHOUTING? I was clearly responding to a poster who asked what the ‘norm’ was. And the norm is that dads take their daughters in the men’s toilets. HTH.

HE TRIED THE MENS AND THE CUBICLE WASN’T AVAILABLE!! Do you think he should have let his DAUGHTER soil herself?

Why are you chatting rubbish and SHOUTING? I was clearly responding to a poster who asked what the ‘norm’ was. And the norm is that dads take their daughters in the men’s toilets. HTH.

Excuse me, that isn't what I said is it. I said there are some disgusting people on this thread, as people are telling this guy they think he should have let his daughter soil herself, calling him names and being extremely unpleasant. He shouted into the toilet, which is more than the cleaner would do.

On another note, I am allowed my opinion, but thanks for deleting my post Mumsnet, not sure how it broke your talk guideline's !

Fucking hell. You really need to grow an empathy gene.

People are showing empathy towards a dad and his 4 year old daughter. Or should they all be showing empathy to someone who wasn't even there and who's life wasn't affected by this event?

Oh sorry. Thought you were yet another rabid MNetter that thought the OP did something wrong. My apologies for shouting. 😳😂

Ok Colombo, I'm curious, what's the bit you think isn't genuine?

I'm not male, or I have no children, or this didn't happen, or I'm a juicy story plant for a tablod, or a Russian bot or what?

If this was a really serious like a crime issue etc that I had to prove to CSI Mumsnet I could, the store will have cctv, you could see me shopping, see my hurry from far end if the store, drop my basket outside the loos & later emerge.

Why would anyone make this up?