Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)

[CallmePaul]

Hello Mumsnet, 1st poster here.

So I'm the man in question here, my 4yr old girl needed the loo in a big store today, went into the men's, stinky & horrible & the only 1 available cubicle is engaged, the disabled one is locked & my little one is busting.
I opened the ladies door, wow much nicer than the men's! I asked loudly if it was OK if a man came in with his little girl to the loo, got an OK from a cubicle, business attended to.

Washing her & my hands afterwards I got a pretty loud tut & mumble of humph womans toilets, from a lady who just entered, I get it, I'm a bloke in a ladies loos, I really shouldn't be in there.

I've never taken her in the ladies before, always the men's & some pretty nasty loos at times.

So acceptable behaviour from me or was I out of order?

This. What an on earth are people afraid of here? That a guy with his little girl is going to burst into another cubicle and assault someone? Context, people! Man going in alone, not cool. Man avoiding vile men's jacks where other men likely have their dongs out for a wee so his child can wee in comfort, fine.

The places I've felt most vulnerable are all women spaces.

I've travelled a lot in the UK and had to use all sorts of public loos, (in streets, not in shops or cafes) both in cities, service stations, railway stations, you name it.

I've felt vulnerable because I know that any men intent on harming women will target an all-women space, when it's quiet and no one is around.

I've sat on loos in quiet streets worrying if a man has followed me in or is waiting outside.

I've never ever felt worried about a man using a women's loo with his young child and wouldn't.

I don’t think you did anything wrong. If it was you needing the toilet and had your daughter with you then obviously you just wait for the cubicle in the men’s as you can wait. She’s four, she needed the toilet, it would have been clear to anyone that you were with your daughter. You prioritised your child’s basic human need over the comfort of other adults. Some people won’t like it but some people won’t like lots of things and it’s easy to be the perfect parent when you aren’t the one dealing with the small child.

I do agree that the state of the loos is irrelevant.

I still bring my 8 year old step son in the women’s loos with me sometimes in service stations if there’s no accessible toilet available, as I am not sending him into the men’s on his own to wait for a cubicle. In the women’s it’s all cubicles so no male genitals exposed in the women’s and I would 100% prefer to be sure of the safety of my child over making other people slightly awkward.

four is too young to use a fully
public toilet on their own. Service station loos tend to be really big and round corners and not easy to wait by the entrance which is what I’d do in other circumstances.

And when your daughter is eight or nine and going in by herself how would you feel about some strange man going in there then?

funny how men always seem to find an excuse to go into women’s spaces, but never the other way around. No woman is saying that their little boy would rather use the men’s loo so is it ok if she goes in there.

So many women acting like women DON'T "invade" male spaces which is BULL

Women use men's loos too. Concerts and shows where the audience is mainly women, they'll use the male loos even though there are men present who also need them.

That's really no different to the situation here.

And, just as we have male cleaners who have to go into female toilets, the reverse is true with female cleaners.

Question! If you had a son instead of a daughter, would you still have used the women’s?

Don’t be ridiculous, women aren’t a threat to men. I’m not saying this situation was wrong, but you can’t ignore the fucking obvious just because it suits your argument.

I wouldn’t let a 4 year old manage a public loo on her own. Quite apart from anything else, if she’s managed to wet the seat she won’t think to wipe it off and may not flush it properly, not to mention pulling out far too much paper.

Yeah he should have just let his daughter soil herself 🙄any other decision him must be being a vile predator 'looking for an excuse' to invade a woman's space. Because men are a homogenous group of sub-human scum bags who all think and act alike.....

Believe it or not, not all men think a woman's loo is a desirable place that they can't wait to get into!! We are talking about a dad here taking his daughter to the loo which is a normal thing for a parent to have to do.

My dh says he used to dread this when dd was little and they were on their own because he didn't want to expose her to the men's loos nor did he feel comfortable taking her in the ladies- aware of the sorts of reactions displayed on this board. Some men are acutely aware of this situation/dilemma and this was the very reason the OP came on here to ask for the female perspective I imagine.

We are not set up for families really are we? Certainly not set up for dads who actually parent - so many changing tables are in the women's loos. My DH found this. Hard to find a unisex changing bag - ended up with a horrible brown thing. Changing rooms are not set up right either.

Had this dilemma many times when dd was 4/5 - the issue with going in on her own was usually the strength needed to open the entry doors. I'd have to perch in the entry "airlock" with a foot in the inner door.

Went through a phase where hand drier noise terrified dd, would have to open door and let her know I was there when drier kicked off.

Yes younger I carried her into gents, shielding from a row of urinals - less practical at 4 though most gents are not actually dirty. However at around 4 dd started demanding to use the ladies.

There really are some disgusting people on this thread. I personally couldn't give a shit (no pun intended) who is in the toilet stall next to me, utterly ridiculous that people have an issue with what you done, what miserable life's you all must lead!

@SpringHexagon i am disgusting because I was raped in a toilet and now have an extreme fear of men in my spaces? Wow.

I wouldn't have minded.

'Some folk' include women who have been victims of sexual abuse, and who experience involuntary trauma responses when they find themselves in a potentially vulnerable situation with a man.

'Some folk' are women who could be dealing with heavy periods, even possibly miscarriage, in women's facilities, on the expected understanding that they are single sex facilities.

That you are okay with this doesn't override consent on behalf of other women.

And you would suggest women with legitimate issues such as this - or merely who are uncomfortable with sharing their protected spaces with males, 'have a stick up their butt'.

Nice. Real nice.

I would have been fine since you were there to help your daughter out. Would not inagine 4 year old girl walking past men standing over urinals.. :o/

Absolutely. This site is full of these. And we all know who 'these' are.

I’m so sorry you have experienced that and have been left with this extreme fear. It’s not ok that this happened to you.

This poster isn’t saying that you are disgusting but the way the OP has been treated.

Your intense fear, whilst awful for you, doesn’t mean that life should organise itself around it. Whilst you absolutely deserve to feel safe, this man’s daughter also has rights, needs and deserved to be able to use a toilet. Both things are true and one doesn’t trump the other. Luckily you weren’t in the toilet at the time and the vast majority of the time everyone uses public loos safely and dads don’t often need to do this.

You were unlucky and it’s not fair and you didn’t deserve that. Society needs to address male to female violence as a priority and women should be able to feel safer. That’s a separate issue to a dad making sure his daughter didn’t soil herself and using the ladies in an urgent situation.

EMDR can really help with the physiological consequences of trauma. Im sending you lots of positive and warm thoughts on your healing journey. 💐

For everyone's concern about a male parent in a female space, there doesn't seem to be much concern for a female child being exposed to a male space. I don't understand the lack of protectiveness towards the child. If we are so concerned for ourselves, why aren't we concerned for her?

What is a dad supposed to actually do in this situation?

As previous poster has stated, not all 4 year olds can reach flush, door handle etc so going in alone is not always an option. If we're talking a young 4, she may not have started school yet, and some children have personal care needs or reasons why it's not suitable for them to go in alone.

And you think a man with a 4 year old will rape you?

I agree too!
Some of the responses on here are ridiculous.

genuinely wouldn't bother me..
I've ended up supervising some kids when their dads have made the choice to send them in unattended and they can't do stuff for themselves, like wash hands/reach the soap...etc.
I don't mind doing that, but i'd rather Dad came in (With asking first) than sent a tiny child in alone.

@IslandsInTheSunshine those 99% of men who are decent human beings though (OP included) would here be putting women in a position where they can’t call out inappropriate behaviour for fear they are labelled hysterical. As a women, if I see man doing something that makes me uncomfortable I should be able to call out that behaviour, and report it if relevant.

a woman or girl calling out this man would’ve been told but he’s ok though. And after being shut down once is unlikely to call out this behaviour again.

so many times where women have found themselves in dangerous situations it is where their gut instinct is telling them something isn’t right, but for fear or offending they keep quiet and get on with it.

if there had been a little girl in the loo at the same time and had told her mum that there was a man in the loo- and she had been told that it’s ok he’s allowed to be there. What happens next time there’s a man in the ladies loo?

what happens when a lady goes in and there’s a man hanging around by a stall door and he just says his little girl is on the other side? There might not be a child there.

the point is decent men want to protect women’s spaces, and empower women to speak out when there is something that makes them uncomfortable. This kind of behaviour stops that from happening.

the OP on this post has every excuse in the world as to why he should be allowed in that space. No woman is going to outwardly question it, and the woman who did signal she was uncomfortable has been labelled as rude, rather than respecting that. He says he asked if it was ok- judging by the fact he doesn’t agree with the lady he made uncomfortable- I wonder whether he would’ve respected it if someone had said no.

A dad going into a toilet in desperation because his child is about to lose control of her bowels is not the same as a man just randomly condoning men going into women's spaces in general. That's why he was asking what the heck to do in this situation!!! He had no thoughts of labelling anyone, I imagine at the time his only thought and priory was ensuring that his daughter was able to go to the toilet without the humiliation of a public accident or the indignity of going into a potentially unsafe and unsanitary men's loo.

It's insulting to the 99% of men who are decent human beings.

Lisak and Miller estimated that at least 6% of men are rapists. Other studies reckon an even higher proportion.