Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)

[CallmePaul]

Hello Mumsnet, 1st poster here.

So I'm the man in question here, my 4yr old girl needed the loo in a big store today, went into the men's, stinky & horrible & the only 1 available cubicle is engaged, the disabled one is locked & my little one is busting.
I opened the ladies door, wow much nicer than the men's! I asked loudly if it was OK if a man came in with his little girl to the loo, got an OK from a cubicle, business attended to.

Washing her & my hands afterwards I got a pretty loud tut & mumble of humph womans toilets, from a lady who just entered, I get it, I'm a bloke in a ladies loos, I really shouldn't be in there.

I've never taken her in the ladies before, always the men's & some pretty nasty loos at times.

So acceptable behaviour from me or was I out of order?

Unfortunately it isn't niche. I'm so sorry. Both for your experience and for the women I know who share it.

People seem to be losing sight here. This is not about a man entering the women's for himself. It is about a dad assisting his young daughter in a place that is appropriate for her and protecting her. It seems clear it was urgent and he did his best to minimize discomfort of women present by announcing his intention and obtaining consent from those present. All suggestions that he should have gone elsewhere could've been options in a non-urgent situation. FFS the child is 4. No way would I want my daughter taken into men's unless empty, clean and someone standing at the door preventing other men from entering until we were done. Maybe in a non-urgent situation the OP could do that in future. 🤷‍♀️

FFS 😴

Technically they are single sex spaces unless the man identifies as trans.
That’s why we need more family and disabled toilets.

Took the words right out of my mouth 🙂

Boys are absolute sadists about girls' sanpro. They don't all grow out of it.

Well in the circumstances I think it was ok. You had a small child that couldn’t have gone in to the loo on her own.

We went in to a pub the other day and all the toilets were same sex, very narrow area too so if someone came in or out you’d be having to back in the loo, back up the galley or touch eachother getting out- unpleasant. Men do make a right mess of the toilet (and some women but men more!) If you can’t aim, without getting pee everywhere -sit down!

I’ve also used the men’s toilets many decades ago- desperate and the queue for the women’s was out the door. Needs must!

I will be fine with a dad taking his daughter to use the toilet. He’s not in there for himself and really and every woman there has a cubicle, it’s not as if the women would have been peeing in sight.
And I don’t know how matured people’s 4 year old are but when mine was that age, they couldn’t navigate a toilet they’re not familiar with by themselves. I can’t even send a 4yo boy or girl into a toilet by themselves anyway with the way they talk about creeps hiding inside public toilets and all.

Some very uptight responses here. I think some people are very overly sensitive to be honest.

As a woman, I’d be fine with this. Men’s toilets aren’t very pleasant and there’s just as much chance of a weird man in the men’s watching your DD as there is of you being perverted in the women’s toilets! If you didn’t have your DD then yeah, obviously it’s weird, but you did. Some kids can’t hold their bladder. Even as an adult I struggle to hold mine at times due to health issues so when I need to go, I need to!

Sometimes people need to catch a grip and realise life doesn’t always work out perfectly. There are cubicles so it’s not as if you would have been exposed to
anyone sat on the toilet

So it appears the commenters can be divided into a few groups;

-Those who think the OP was alright under the circumstances

-Those who have never seen, interacted with, or even heard of 4 year olds
before, and therefore think they're just fine using public toilets on their own

-Those who think the OP is actually part of a conspiracy by Russian intelligence to infiltrate men into women's toilets, using their own children as decoys.

-Those who think the OP was wrong, but for reasons that are not batshit crazy (eg past experience of SA)

on Mumsnet I’ve read grown women going into hysterics about 7 year old boys in womens toilets, utterly ridiculous

Man posts. Has to be hand held through working the forum. Doesn't like some answer. Nasty womenesssss. Flounce.

Love it.

As a woman and a feminist and someone who has been sexually assaulted by a man in a public space, I am absolutely amazed at the ridiculous replies on here. I’m actually embarrassed.

I’ve had so much support from here on this forum and there has been such kindness, wisdom, humour and compassion. And there is a lot of that still on this thread but OMG I can’t believe the nastiness and man hating vitriol from some.

Yes most violence is perpetrated by men BUT NOT ALL MEN ARE VIOLENT MONSTERS. The vast majority of men range from irritating to bloody wonderful. As a mother to a DS I’m finding the men bashing really uncomfortable.

This dad came on to check something really reasonable out. He is clearly just a dad who had a dilemma, came across some grumpiness and wanted to check out if he’d done something bad.

Hes then met with a few really nasty replies and when he then reacts (mildly) he gets labelled abusive. His inability to use quotes is mocked. When he’s had enough of the horribleness and goes he’s ‘flouncing’.

It’s embarrassing! Just stop. And certainly don’t do it under the guise of feminism and protecting women’s rights. It’s playground behaviour.

That said, Post trauma responses feel awful. There are therapies that can help. EMDR being one with very sound evidence. It can really shift the physiological responses to traumatic memories. I wish all the women in here recovering from man inflicted trauma my most healing and loving thoughts. It’s truly horrible and unacceptable that these things happen. But laying into a dad on MN will not stop the pain and will not make the world a better safer place for our children, it will just create more division.

If I had a daughter of any age I certainly wouldn't want her in the men's loos, nor would I be happy a about a 4 year old going into a public loo on their own. You did the right thing.

Some women on here need to take a long hard look at themselves.
Their comments make me ashamed to be female.
It's like witnessing a baying mob, out to 'get' this man, where common sense has gone out the window.

Context is everything.

This isn't about some odd bloke who's turned up in the Ladies. A potential rapist, or flasher, or whatever. He has a child with him.

It's a dad whose little girl was desperate for a poo (that's what he said.) No time to find as asst for the key to the accessible loo. Men's loos filthy.

He did everything right, by asking if it was okay to use the loos.

I am 100% behind safe women spaces, but that doesn't mean there are exceptions when circumstances vary.

In some places now- especially London museums and galleries- there are no single sex loos. It's all communal. Yes, each cubicle has its own wash basin, but the entire loo block is used by everyone.

Honestly, the posts here show nothing but ignorance.

A 4 year old will have an issue actually getting onto an adult size loo .
Do none of those posters have small children? Did you never buy a 'loo seat' to put over the ones at home to make it smaller? Or have a little plastic step so your child could reach the loo to sit on it?

For goodness sake, let's not start looking at all men as rapists because they simply are not. It's insulting to the 99% of men who are decent human beings.

Agree 100%

I personally wouldn’t mind at all if I saw a dad and young child in ladies loo.

Yup.

KillerTomato7
There's a group you've missed: women who may or may not feel comfortable using unisex facilities, but understand that they're not the only woman out there and appreciate that other women may not feel comfortable with men in an otherwise single sex space, and may not feel comfortable telling a man that they feel uncomfortable.

Given that on a population level women are socialised that saying "no" to men is a bad thing and there's a lot of men out there who don't like women saying "no" to them, any situation where a man wants to be in a women's single sex space places women in an uncomfortable position. For that reason it doesn't matter what I personally feel ok with. I'm not going to advocate for men coming into women's single sex spaces.

Reading this thread makes me wonder how on earth mumsnetters cope with gender neutral toilets, which are becoming really popular for restaurants, bars and museums.

Reading this thread makes me wonder how on earth mumsnetters cope with gender neutral toilets, which are becoming really popular for restaurants, bars and museums
As self contained cubicles with toilet and sink in one, I couldn't care less. 🤷‍♀️

If a unisex space is marked as unisex, I can choose to use a unisex space, or choose not to based on the design of the facilities.

If a space is single sex then I expect it to be single sex, not mixed sex.

The solution to male space issues is not for women to budge up or solve the problems. The solution is for men to fix it and push for the change they want.

For example, I have a son. When he is too old to come in the women's changing at swimming, we will choose to swim somewhere with family changing. I'm not going to expect his female peers to tolerate a boy in their space because it sends a harmful message to girls that they have to budge up to account for problems in men's spaces.

I couldn’t agree more, you’ve articulated everything I wanted to say.

Why are people being so cruel to the op ? This place is getting more toxic every day.

You're on mumsnet, you should know, all men are evil.

He should have taken a leaf out of some of the mums around here, hold her up, lower her pants and let her pee in the gutter, seams like standard practice.

If a unisex space is marked as unisex, I can choose to use a unisex space, or choose not to based on the design of the facilities.

Choose away! But if you need a wee or a poo and there is no other option, you'd use it.

If a space is single sex then I expect it to be single sex, not mixed sex.
So your mindset can't comprehend or budge in the slightest when a dad is thrown a curve ball and his 4 year old daughter needs a poo?

You are this intransigent in the rest of your life about everything?
Compassion? Any?

When he is too old to come in the women's changing at swimming, we will choose to swim somewhere with family changing.

So what is the difference in your mind between a family changing area (with men, God forbid!) and unisex loos? Will you choose to use a family space?

I'm not going to expect his female peers to tolerate a boy in their space because it sends a harmful message to girls that they have to budge up to account for problems in men's spaces.

Women haven't had to 'budge up' if the pool has family spaces, are they?
Or have they?
You seem a bit confused.