Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)

[CallmePaul]

Hello Mumsnet, 1st poster here.

So I'm the man in question here, my 4yr old girl needed the loo in a big store today, went into the men's, stinky & horrible & the only 1 available cubicle is engaged, the disabled one is locked & my little one is busting.
I opened the ladies door, wow much nicer than the men's! I asked loudly if it was OK if a man came in with his little girl to the loo, got an OK from a cubicle, business attended to.

Washing her & my hands afterwards I got a pretty loud tut & mumble of humph womans toilets, from a lady who just entered, I get it, I'm a bloke in a ladies loos, I really shouldn't be in there.

I've never taken her in the ladies before, always the men's & some pretty nasty loos at times.

So acceptable behaviour from me or was I out of order?

There is a generally accepted principle that children under 8 are fine in the opposite sexes toilets. That’s because people don’t generally sexualise children

You're right ,I'm all for keeping women safe but do these people not give a toss about young children anymore . I'm actually quite shocked at some of the responses.

So? Just because you don’t immediately recognise the context, doesn’t mean it’s not there.

But you noticed the mens first so why not dash in there.
You use the toilet based on the sex of the adult.
protect vulnerable women.
One day your daughter could be a vulnerable woman who is threatened by men.With or without a child.

Women who are traumatised don’t notice their surroundings, they just see the threat.
To be honest going for the AIBU vote is insulting. Just one person is enough, surely.

I'm sorry but you had no right to be in the ladies loos. I get that it were on your own and it was an emergency etc.. but you were putting your own needs above whoever was in the loos at that time. For some women, seeing a man in a womens only space is traumatising/re-traumatinsing/intimidating/culturally inappropriate. Just because it makes your life easier doesn't mean it's okay

There's something about focus here, I think. Even an abused woman, who might freeze if a man just walked into a female space, would surely feel reassured if the man who came in was totally focused on his squirmy daughter and seeing her safely into the loo, rather than even sending the merest glance towards other women occupying the space.

I'm generally a supporter of gender-nuetral loos, but would initially feel a bit surprised seeing a guy in a women's loo, until I realised he was there just to look after his daughter (presumably you went into the cubicle with her rather than lurking!)

I don't see a problem.

On your own... yeah I'd be telling you where to go. With a child, go ahead....

This is where gender neutral loos come into great inventions.
(Obviously men and women's ones should be available too)
Gender neutral floor to ceiling ones are great for your situation as you shouldn't be going into the women's with her.

I keep coming back to my original question of why men’s toilets are so grim. Do dads not teach their sons? I read enough threads on MN to know without a shadow of a doubt that there are some seriously lazy and selfish men out there. But how did they get this bad?

This.

I carry a radar key because of a long-term bowl condition. When I have to go, there's no scouting for the cleanest loo, there's just using the nearest loo.

I carry a pocket pack of tissues and a sprayer of hand sanitiser and have often used them to clean a loo seat before use, and on one unpleasant occasion, cleaned the backs of my thighs after use 🤮 when I didn't have time to clean the loo seat first.

To all the women that have been hurt, abused and harassed by men - it’s not acceptable and it needs to change. As a society we need to change things.

Getting triggered by things into flashbacks to trauma is awful. It truly is. Therapy can help.

We can’t set the world up to completely avoid triggers. I was assaulted in a park. I can’t avoid parks.

Whilst it’s important that we have safe, women only, spaces, public toilets are ever really completely safe. Anyone can walk in in reality. Mostly though it works fine - and everyone is fine. The odd dad taking his kid in isn’t the worst thing in the world. He called out to check first and was with a 4 year old child. The context was obvious.

Also, most men aren’t dangerous. Lots of men are kind and compassionate human beings. Most violent crime is committed by men, but most men don’t commit violent crimes.

This was a dad. First and foremost. With a small female child desperate for the toilet. He’s not the enemy. He’s a human being, with a small child needing the loo who is now asking a question on a forum.

But it wasn't his own needs. It was the needs of his four year old daughter. I think preventing a child from pooping themselves in public is more than just 'making your life easier'. I agree it's not an ideal situation but I think he took the safest course of action given the circumstances and that no other loos were available.

I'd be far more uncomfortable with a man holding the door open and peering in than a man who was either in the cubicle or holding the cubicle door closed ....

I see, thanks for the polite welcome, sorry something horrific has happened to you in the past. I thought i was being a decent parent.

Couldn't tell you I'm not a dad and I have no intention of ever entering a male toilet .

So I shared this with my dh and asked what he used to do as he had shared custody of his daughter since she was 3 and so was in these situations fairly regularly before he met me. His reply - " Always hated these situations - honestly dreaded it! I never wanted to go in the ladies and would never dream of taking her on the Gents. Thank goodness for disabled loos."

Seems you're not alone being unsure how to navigate this one @CallmePaul

Would a decent parent teach their daughter that she can't ever really have privacy or dignity because there will be times when men will think they have a reason to be in female-only spaces?

I should have held her to poo in the sink or over a urinal beside men peeing?

Read my post, the one available mens cubicle was engaged

For what?

Hi…just a tip as you’re new here.
If you are responding to someone’s post you can do this by hitting the 3 dots on the top right hand side of the post you want to respond to

You were being a decent parent.

A man taking his daughter to the women's toilet is not comparable to a rapist going into a women's toilet to rape someone.

Often, a contributing factor to a woman being subjected to a completed rape as opposed to an attempted rape is that she assumed good faith on the part of the man who committed a boundary violation and then went on to rape her. Stopping to look around for the reason why the man is in the women's loos could be the difference between the woman escaping or not.

If you had a shred of understanding about how rapists are opportunists and how a victim might learn from the first time not to let even one boundary violation slide, you'd understand this.

?? for what hideous crime? I'm happy for mumsnet to video call me & put my daughter on the call, my lord why would I make this up?

What an odd unfulfilled life you must lead

A what?

In the loo with me, only ever a wee but what on earth else can you do.