If you saw this parent on a train?

[rocknrollaa]

On the train today, I saw a mother with 3 kids was really losing her temper with them. The kids were just being kids - talking quite loudly, getting out of their seats sometimes - nothing bad, just a bit excitable.

But mum was really telling them off - for the whole journey of about half an hour, all you could hear from her were loud angry commands to sit down, shut up, threats that they are not going to go trick or treating, etc. She didn't say a single thing to them that wasn't a command or telling them off, and her voice was loud and angry.

At one point the eldest, probably about 8/9, got very upset with her mum who told her she couldn't go trick or treating.

The child was crying, she said ' I was just starting to feel happy again and then you told me off again'. Mum replied loudly 'Stop being naughty then. Why the bloody hell are you only happy when you're bad?! I SWEAR DOWN you're not going trick or treating tonight', then the kid started crying.

We didn't intervene but we felt really sorry for these kids. It was serious shouting and they really weren't misbehaving much at all.

It got me thinking what I would do if I actually saw her hit one of the kids (because I felt like she was on the verge of it, but didn't).

Would you intervene? If so how?

YABU - No I wouldn't intervene - it's her business how she parents her kids.
YANBU - Yes I would intervene (please comment what you'd do)

Society’s ‘shame’ didn’t make her treat her kids like that - she feels no shame and did it all by herself in a very public place. I’m a feminist and very sympathetic to the plight of women in this world but you’re talking shit. 🙄

See attached (as pic) table from Statista, showing that in 2021 more females than males perpetrated abuse - Statista is one of the most trusted sources of stats and subscribed to by many businesses and orgs worldwide. Source is below.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/418470/number-of-perpetrators-in-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us-by-sex/

The gov stats also show that the mother was main perpetrator of abuse in studies conducted between 2001-2005, in 2009, and in 2021 - tables attached.

Also, the data from article below. This was just first page of Google so not read it all in detail. I've just read several times previously that men commit the most sexual abuse but women the most overall abuse.

TV shows and movies likewise hardly ever tell stories of abusive mothers or mothers who kill their children, leaving the viewing public with the misimpression that fathers are a far greater danger to their children than mothers. TV shows and movies are also far more likely to portray girls as victims of maltreatment than boys.

However data from the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services (DHHS) tells a completely opposite story regarding who abuses children. The DHHS publishes an annual report called "Child Maltreatment", and each year's report contains a table detailing the parental status of the perpetrator(s).

Shown below is an analysis of data drawn from the "Child abuse and neglect" and the "Child fatality" tables from each of the DHHS' "Child Maltreatment" reports between 2001 and 2006.

The DHHS calculates the percentages of perpetrators in various categories such as Mother, Father, Foster Parent, Daycare Staff, Friend or Neighbor, etc. The percentages are often used to argue whether, on average, it is fathers or mothers that pose a greater risk of harm to their children. But when trying to determine which parent, on average poses the greater danger, categories like Foster Parent, Daycare Staff, Friend or Neighbor, etc. are entirely irrelevant. The calculations below factor out those categories to produce a more accurate picture. The resulting calculations show the percentage of child abuse and deaths caused by one parent acting either alone or in concert with someone other than the child's other parent.

The DHHS data shows that of children abused by one parent between 2001 and 2006, 70.6% were abused by their mothers, whereas only 29.4% were abused by their fathers.

And of children who died at the hands of one parent between 2001 and 2006, 70.8% were killed by their mothers, whereas only 29.2% were killed by their fathers.

Furthermore, contrary to media portrayals that leave the viewer with the impression that only girls are ever harmed, boys constituted fully 60% of child fatalities. (Table 4-3, p. 71, Child Maltreatment 2006, http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm06/cm06.pdf, reports that 675 boys died in 2006 as compared to 454 girls).

https://www.breakingthescience.org/SimplifiedDataFromDHHS.php#data

The gov stats from 2001-2006 and 2009 both show the mother as being over twice as likely to kill or abuse a child. I didn't know the discrepancy was that big tbf.

It does show how selective people are with what data they prioritise as I've literally never heard this discussed once on mumsnet despite it being a significant statistic. In future, I'll defo have to give serious thought to reporting if I see a woman who gives me the impression she could become violent towards her kids or if I have a bad feeling.

Screamingabdabz - and you are extremely rude. Absolutely foul manners on a public forum, and yes, abusive language. Take a good look at yourself. I can't engage with that sort of rhetoric but I think it's clear how well formed your opinions are.

You can not judge the scene you saw. You have no idea what that mum has or hasn't been thru the rest of the day or week. Sorry we all get to the end of our tether occasionally also

🤣

The charities are encouraging safe-guarding children. If you equate that with 'grassing' or 'tale telling' then there is something seriously wrong with your priorities.

Children need adults to advocate and speak up for them so yes, it is 100% better to be safe rather than sorry.

LadythatLaunches - I'm interested to see those figures. Given women undertake the vast majority of childcare, they shouldn't surprise us. Perhaps if figures such as these were more widely known, we might address some of the issues they raise. Monstering women allows members of society to feel good about themselves while taking no responsibility. Actually addressing the fundamental issues takes effort. Being a mother is a difficult and lonely job, when the pressure gets too much, it's the children that suffer because the mum can't just walk away. Remember children's centres? They were supposed to address some of these fundamental problems, all gone now as far as I know 😔

Poor kids.

I doubt I'd have done anything or said anything, to be honest. Lots of people are heroes on their keyboards a million miles away from the situation, few people actually do anything in the moment. I'd worry I'd make it worse for them somehow.

I might try and catch the eye of one of the nippers and give them a smile, try and project all the "it won't always be like this" I can into their little brain. Coward's way out probably, but as the child of a relentlessly shouty and critical and nit-picky mum, I'd just want to tell them without words that it's not forever. It gets easier as you get older and she gets better at it. Hang in there.

Poor kids.

I saw what looked like a gran verbally threaten some girls with being hit for getting food round their mouths. Another time I saw a family and can't remember the details but the dad was being very controlling and aggressive. It seemed like that was their life. Think he said that their picnic was going in the bin. I wish I'd asked the mum if they were ok; I mean, she would've had to say yes in front of him probably. Maybe I could've taken her to one side.

Most of me thinks I’d have distracted the kids with a whisper game, a sitting version of sleeping lions, join in ISpy, read them/ tell them a story etc..
But I’m not this mum who might have been taking the kids home after seeing a sick relative , she might have mega money worries, health worries, housing worries, lost her job, can’t get a job., not had a decent nights sleep in a week. Any one of a million things where she just needed them to sit still and quiet until they got off the train. Shit days happen.

AuntieDear - some charities have a history of behaving very poorly with regard to safeguarding in their own organisations let alone anywhere else. The NSPCC were implicated in failures in the Victoria Climbie case. The public tend to put these charities on a pedestal they don't necessarily deserve. I don't have the answers but blind trust in charities and public services is the way individuals absolve themselves of responsibility. They can't do the job of community (but they will take your money and they will collate figures on the number of reports they get about stressed mums on trains and will present them to government and the public as justification for increased resources) meanwhile children go on being abused and mumsnetters go on feeling smug that they've grassed up a stressed mum. What a world!

I dint know. Thats why I would have asked ? Maybe offer to sit one of the kids by you. Or simply just chat to the mum sj she he's a bit of a break. She doesn't look like she's coping

I've posted the figures above. I agree with you. It's not about blame, it's about understanding the reality and dealing with it. Sadly it's almost always male violence we hear about on here and never this stuff.

Obv men commit the majority of general violence (mostly against other men) but it's been done to death so many times already. Until searching for some links requested by ChiefWiggum earlier tonight I wasn't even aware that women kill the most children (only that they abuse more).

Although I think it may not always be the case that the mother is struggling. Some people are just antisocial, quick to anger, and deal with things via confrontation/aggression. Go to a few rough pubs in a dodgy part of town and you'll defo meet some women that'd headbutt you rather than talk if you pissed them off after they'd had a few.

I wouldn't intervene for a smack on the leg (even though I strongly disagree with smacking) Anything more than that, I'd be over there giving her a piece of my mind. I was once in an hour long fair ride queue with my kids, behind a dad who was telling his kids off the entire time. So, I told him to give it a rest, because his voice was annoying everyone and that his kids were just being kids!

Or she might be an abusive bully.

Would you really need to rule out a million excuses before considering that possibility.

I've seen many, many stressed out Mum's being harsh with their children, and given them a sympathetic smile. But I've also witnessed three women being awful in a very different way that really concerned me.
All were strangers in public places and nothing I could do.

Not the same as OP, but one of them was violently smacking a 3yr old (?) boy while holding him off the ground by his arm with her other hand. I just stood staring, wondering what to do, hoping other passersby might help. She had a 5yr old (?) daughter who stood dispassionately by - she saw me looking aghast at her mother and said, "what the fuck are you staring at?"

This was 30 odd years ago in Shepherds Bush. The woman looked like she'd have punched my lights out if I'd intervened.

This is quite difficult - I think I would have tried to engage a little, even if it was just about the weather or ‘it’s so busy today’ or something stupid. Just to bring the mother out of it - it’s hard to keep being angry with someone engages. It can break the relentlessness.

But I do see sometimes just some horrible heartbreaking things, like gangs of kids wandering around with younger ones, not of the age you could call SS but you just know that this isn’t great for them. Or seeing like I did yesterday a kid just not looking great with a Dad who totally ignored him. It’s just a snapshot, but sometimes a really sad one.

Having said that I have a child with SN and often people have probably assumed all sorts, he screams sometimes so loud it’s like an emergency! And shouts and cries, tantrums go on for an hour sometimes. Sometimes in public. It might be because I said ‘let’s go home now’… but it might really look differently to a passer by!

Not the same as OP, but one of them was violently smacking a 3yr old (?) boy I get it’s scary to intervene but I’d have phoned the police for that. Or if she wasn’t as scary, told her to stop and told a security or someone.

Think about what you would do if you saw an adult hit another adult. You’d call the police wouldn’t you? Amazes me that people wouldn’t automatically know to contact police if they saw an adult hitting a child. It’s assault.

However - she didn’t hit anyone, so what’s the point in speculating?

You have no idea what is going on for this woman. She could be under huge stress and her children have just pushed her buttons all day.

Think about what you would do if you saw an adult hit another adult. You’d call the police wouldn’t you

Not always, would depend on the situation.

This was in the street, before mobile phones, but yes, I often wonder if I should have done something. I have more confidence these days too.

Why would you expect to ‘hear back’?

This is how my neighbours speak to their children every single day. I have never heard them have a conversation with the kids, only ever bark orders at them. SS are not interested, this is life for many children across the UK. So long as they are clothed, fed and have a bed there is no consideration given to the emotional neglect these children suffer.

I'd mind my own bloody business, that's what I'd do.

This poor mom is probably at the end of her tether. You're only seeing the train journey. How do you know how the kids have acted all day? You have been a tiny snapshot of the day and judging based on that.