If you saw this parent on a train?

[rocknrollaa]

On the train today, I saw a mother with 3 kids was really losing her temper with them. The kids were just being kids - talking quite loudly, getting out of their seats sometimes - nothing bad, just a bit excitable.

But mum was really telling them off - for the whole journey of about half an hour, all you could hear from her were loud angry commands to sit down, shut up, threats that they are not going to go trick or treating, etc. She didn't say a single thing to them that wasn't a command or telling them off, and her voice was loud and angry.

At one point the eldest, probably about 8/9, got very upset with her mum who told her she couldn't go trick or treating.

The child was crying, she said ' I was just starting to feel happy again and then you told me off again'. Mum replied loudly 'Stop being naughty then. Why the bloody hell are you only happy when you're bad?! I SWEAR DOWN you're not going trick or treating tonight', then the kid started crying.

We didn't intervene but we felt really sorry for these kids. It was serious shouting and they really weren't misbehaving much at all.

It got me thinking what I would do if I actually saw her hit one of the kids (because I felt like she was on the verge of it, but didn't).

Would you intervene? If so how?

YABU - No I wouldn't intervene - it's her business how she parents her kids.
YANBU - Yes I would intervene (please comment what you'd do)

I am so sorry I replied to the wrong poster, was supposed to be the one above that said sometimes kids need a smack !

You know what you saw. Frazzled is one thing but there's a difference between that and taking out your frustration on your children. The damage emotional harm does to children is significant and regardless of physical chastisement it sounds abusive Short of following them home or to a car to get sone details you can report, it's impossible to get police or social services involved. I may have tried to engage the mother in friendly conversation to see if she calmed down and started beibg kinder to the kids. if i felt genuinely worried for the children i would report to police as a safeguarding concern. they would be able to access cctv etc whereas social services cannot

I echo every word in your post.

I also have been this mother. Completely frazzled, 3 small children, trying to manage them on a shopping trip, and like this woman, was now being snappy & instructive as we got coffee / hot chocolate. I was a single parent, having a hard time, and it had been a hard day with them.

I was so conscious of them possible disrupting other customers, I was probably overdoing it.

An older woman came over to me, I thought she was going to say something nice, she instead said 'it's really awful to hear you speak to them like that'. Laden with judgment, in look & tone. I was so shocked, I asked her what she said, and she repeated it, saying something about 'small children'.

While she may have had a point, I was so upset. She was only seeing a few minutes, had no idea what else I was dealing with, and the irony is that I was trying to make sure we didn't disturb others.

It's years ago & I still think of that say. A smile & 'they're being very good' or whatever would probably have made me reflect & maybe relax; instead she made me feel totally totally shit. (And I wasn't. I was having one bad day).

OP, your post screams utter judgment & a complete lack of understanding.

I have spoken up in that situation, twice. They don't like it, and abuse you back. But it may trickle through at some point that child abuse - emotional, mental, as well as physical, and sexual - is not okay. And perhaps it is helpful for the child to know someone spoke up, even once in their life.

And now my DC are older, I often see frazzled mums being (from an outside perspective) impatient or less than kind to their kids. My instinct is 'poor little kid', of course, as it's much easier to be sympathetic when it's not your own child!

But I remember my tough days; if I can offer some practical help I do, or I catch their eye, smile, say something positive in passing.

Of course there are shitty emotionally abusive parents. And in a passing few moments, you can't tell which is which. But I try to start from a position of, they're doing their best & can I be of some help here?

Because I also remember the really kind small gestures others (woman, always I think, did for me when I really needed them).

I know exactly the sort of interaction you witnessed OP. I've seen people parent like that and it's very different to ordinary grumpiness. I've witnessed similar interactions and it's made me really sad.

I'd be prepared to bet that they DID go trick or treating. She sounds like one of those who is full of hot air, and rants and raves and walks about with a face like a smacked backside, but has little control, and the kids know it and run rings round her.
I wouldn't say anything, but sit there and feel grateful for my own setup.

Well done you, sallywd. My former neighbour thought she could tell the difference too and made an anonymous phone call to social services. I was coping with two very young neurodiverse kids. I was coping fine but that...that very nearly broke me. I couldn't trust anyone, I ended up leaving the home I thought I would live in for the rest of my life. Over ten years later I'm still getting over it. It may seem like an extreme reaction but I was coping (fine) in extreme circumstances but near my limit. Anyone concerned could have rung the bell, brought a packet of biscuits, offered to look after the kids for an hour (I'd have refused but appreciated the offer) but no..better safe than sorry we're told...I'd rather offer a hand of friendship but no, we seem to encourage this culture of grassing people up. I see it all the time on social media and find it sickening. Above all else, it seems to do nothing to stop actual abuse

...but does give people a superior smug feeling, so ok

I’m shocked by these responses, but I generally have been shocked with mumsnet posters recently.

Children should be treated with kindness and respect. I experienced something similar recently OP, and I had to leave the cafe. I was furious and I felt cowardly but I realised I’d end up saying something and the children may face the repercussions.

In the past, I saw a child being treated aggressively by a parent. He had uniform on, I called the school, who thanked me, and made a formal record so they could monitor.

Being tired or frazzled is not an excuse for being mean to children.

That’s really interesting. I always feel cowardly for not stepping but, I always thought that it was recommended you don’t intervene?
It would be good if a professional could give some tips on what you should do in this situation.

I understand too OP and it’s horrible to see. I was in a shopping centre and saw a woman shouting endlessly before eventually screaming at the crying toddler she was with “aww fxcking SHUT UP”. It makes you want to weep. Some people shouldn’t be parents and yup call me judgey all you like but I think a lot of people know the difference between a frazzled, upset mother and an a**ehole.

but no, we seem to encourage this culture of grassing people up. I see it all the time on social media and find it sickening

@Challengemonica what an appalling attitude you have. Criminals talk of "grasses". Children should be safeguarded, the parent's pride doesn't matter. Social services are there to help.

I don't think you should judge her. You got a little snapshot and have absolutely no idea what was going on. I had someone have a go at me for my parenting when my kids were about 6. She told me I was damaging them because of her little snapshot of a problem - she was an arrogant, smug, privileged cow (I didn't tell her this, I calmly informed her that she had no idea was going on). My kids are 15 and 17 now and they are nice people, not damaged.

Sounds pretty hellish - a train journey with 3 small kids, whilst getting judged by strangers.

This is totally different and not what OP described.

Being tired or frazzled is not an excuse for being mean to children

Perhaps not.

But being tired & frazzled after perhaps a really trying day of bad behaviour may offer an explanation.

Rather than judging, a kind word, or a remark on the good behaviour of the DC might help.

As I said, it's not necessarily the case that there's a reason for the mother's demeanour - she could be nasty to her DC for no reason.

But a small snapshot doesn't show which.

In this situation you should just try engage her in a light way to help. But in a way where she doesn't feel like your judging her. Talk to her about something else randomly and then move on to praising the kids etc about something,breaks the ice and eases all the stress all around

I think there are lots of different people from different social backgrounds and brought up themselves in different ways, so speak/ bring up their children in different ways .Might seem a bit harsh to you the way she was being, she does seem like she's at the end of her tether though. No I would not intervene. I can imagine the situation and I'd probably be thinking too, crikey that's a bit rough but at the same time , kids can be a handful she's probably very stressed

There it is! I knew there was a reason OP had capitalised “swear down” and this is it.

Let’s be honest OP, you saw a working class mum, decided her parenting style wasn’t as flowery or stereotypically “middle class” as MN tells you perfect parenting is, and came here to round up the troops with you.

I stopped reading the thread after @LadyThatLaunches’ insightful comment above, but I’m glad to see this was the first (and hopefully only) one that took the bait.

I once saw a mum losing her shit in Primark with twin toddlers who, as far as I could see, were just doing the usual horsing around (which is tough x 2). But she was having a meltdown, almost tantrum-ing on the ground herself. She was shoving them into their pushchair & pulling their pigtails. She made an absolute show of herself, far worse behaved than them…

Another time, a mum was going hell for leather at her son (about 8 years old, seemed well behaved) in M&S. Dragging him around, shouting very loudly at him. A member of staff confronted her & read her the riot act. She was shocked & not one bit happy about it. But the staff member called security & had her booted out. It was actually brilliant to see somebody sticking up due the kid. She said it was store policy!

Middleclass people tend to abuse their children behind closed doors.

Thank you for clarifying.
That is helpful to know for future.

Precisely. I used to work in social services and in schools and I’m aghast at the majority of these responses. There’s a difference between a parent having an outburst and snapping at bad or loud behaviour, and a parent being emotionally abusive by relentlessly picking at their children in public who are merely existing.

The latter destroys self esteem and it’s not about being allowed to “parent” , being a parent isn’t a green card to treat your children however you want. You and your children exist in society that we share together and best believe your treatment of them will impact the rest of society based on the way they’ll turn out. Not to mention you don’t own your children - you have a duty of care towards them.

yes I’m sure she’s not the happiest person either and maybe her life didn’t turn out the way it wanted or she has various stresses going on her and my sympathy goes to her if that’s the case. However, this doesn’t excuse the fact it can and most likely will have a terrible impact on the children’s self esteem and development. And it’s not even about judging her, my first concern would be for the children rather than seeking to punish or shame the mum.

I expect the last journey she was on some arsehole told her to control the kids. Can't win. She'll be a nervous wreck soon, then she'll be told she can't cope.