Page 5 | Aibu to not refund this buyer?

Sellerseller1 · 2023-10-30T14:48:59+00:00

Have an online website selling handmade items. Buyers item was shipped with royal mail tracked delivery, tracking info says it was delivered to a safe place. Customer has now emailed to say item must have been stolen from said safe place and therefore they want me to refund. Aibu to say no? I have sympathy if it genuinely was stolen but firstly I can't just refund everyone who messages to say something has been stolen with no evidence it actually has been and secondly, I've fulfilled my obligation in that it's been sent and marked as delivered on the tracking page. If they come back and it seems they are actually telling the truth I.e. trying to correspond with royal mail/ the police then I may as a gesture of good will replace it but I don't think I need to straight away? (Or even at all technically). Fwiw item wasn't cheap and took a lot of work.

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 18:52

Orange67 · 30/10/2023 18:00

Your post is incorrect, the irony.

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What’s not correct?

Hotchocolate2023 · 30/10/2023 18:54

Did she request the safe place? That makes all the difference

Flowergarden73 · 30/10/2023 18:56

It is your obligation OP
As stressful as it is, as the parcel has gone missing you need to take the hit and refund the customer. (Also the last thing you want is bad reviews about your service as that could jeopardise your whole business) you then need to wait 30 days to claim from Royal Mail. Be advised though Royal Mail will only refund you the cost of goods not the retail price… so say item cost you £20 to make but you sell it for £100 you can only claim £20 plus shipping costs.
Just to make you aware also, as it is clearly a small business I’d steer clear of PayPal for customers to pay for goods. In the eyes of PayPal the customer is always right so even with evidence that the customer is lying they will side with the customer and refund them. I’ve seen it happe. On a number of occasions. Probably not what you want to hear but with your own business sometimes you have to take the losses.

WiIIow · 30/10/2023 19:10

Depends if they selected the safe space or not. If not and it was dumped there then they need to compensate. I'd have said its on you as the seller.

Lucyintheskywithadiamond · 30/10/2023 19:31

The transaction, including the postage, was with you. Surely you are responsible. If Amazon posted something to you and it did not arrive, would you say the seller is not responsible. If you are an online retailer, surely this is not new to you.

lemmein · 30/10/2023 19:33

Was it something they're likely to post on social media OP?

I make baby clothes and sell online - 9 times out of 10 if a customer claims their parcels have not arrived/been stolen, a quick nosey on their Facebook proves otherwise 🙄

Orange67 · 30/10/2023 19:35

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 18:52

What’s not correct?

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That the buyer will be the one selecting the safe space in most cases. You can see lots of posts before yours that contract that, from personal experiences.

lemmein · 30/10/2023 19:38

I run an online business and use Royal Mail daily, you would be amazed at how many people say things were not delivered when tracking shows their front door and a picture of parcel. It is much, much worse these day

This! Especially when you've sent first class - some customers think first class parcels are completely untraceable (which they used to be!). I have less issues now I use tracked24/48.

Ripping off small businesses is the lowest of the low. Rife lately though, it's the bane of my life - not sure why people think I should spend 2-3 hours of my life making their baby an outfit for free 🤯

lemmein · 30/10/2023 19:41

Flowergarden73 · 30/10/2023 18:56

It is your obligation OP
As stressful as it is, as the parcel has gone missing you need to take the hit and refund the customer. (Also the last thing you want is bad reviews about your service as that could jeopardise your whole business) you then need to wait 30 days to claim from Royal Mail. Be advised though Royal Mail will only refund you the cost of goods not the retail price… so say item cost you £20 to make but you sell it for £100 you can only claim £20 plus shipping costs.
Just to make you aware also, as it is clearly a small business I’d steer clear of PayPal for customers to pay for goods. In the eyes of PayPal the customer is always right so even with evidence that the customer is lying they will side with the customer and refund them. I’ve seen it happe. On a number of occasions. Probably not what you want to hear but with your own business sometimes you have to take the losses.

This isn't true. When I've made a claim they've refunded the retail price after I provided proof of the transaction.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 30/10/2023 19:41

BaconMassive · 30/10/2023 15:21

Royal Mail wouldn't make up a safe space it will have been designated by the recipient.

Royal Mail regularly leave things in “safe spaces” they’ve chosen here.

my recycle bin is a regular one. Even on a day when it was down for collection.

Flowergarden73 · 30/10/2023 19:44

I may be wrong but I’ve never had them refund the whole amount only ever the cost of goods and proof had to be sent to them to verify the price. As a customer you can get full refund but as a business I’ve never known it.

lemmein · 30/10/2023 19:47

Flowergarden73 · 30/10/2023 19:44

I may be wrong but I’ve never had them refund the whole amount only ever the cost of goods and proof had to be sent to them to verify the price. As a customer you can get full refund but as a business I’ve never known it.

I'm a business seller - I've never just had the cost price refunded, always the retail price. Id go batshit if they only refunded the materials when it's their fault 😅

HunterHearstHelmsley · 30/10/2023 19:49

easylikeasundaymorn · 30/10/2023 18:26

so they had the option to choose a signed for delivery but chose not to? That's on her then!

I think yes you need to confirm (with RM) if it definitely was left in a safe space and if so where that was - at the moment you've got no proof that it wasn't handed to her. If the buyer had designated the safe space (you can do so with royal mail) - and it was then stollen then that's her problem unfortunately - she should have chosen a better safe place! In the same way, if her ''safe space' was with a neighbour and the neighbour then stole the parcel you can't be held responsible.

If it was Royal mail who selected the safe space and it might not have been safe then she can try claiming against them - either way it's not your fault if she had the option to choose a more secure delivery but decided against it - you fulfilled your end of the contract by using the delivery service she requested.

If you only gave the option of not signed for then that might be slightly different.

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It's not on her if she didn't select signed for. I never pay extra for signed for unless it will arrive quicker. It's for the seller's benefit, not the buyer's.

Neither is it up to the buyer to claim from Royal Mail if they (RM) chose an unsafe safe place.

HunterHearstHelmsley · 30/10/2023 19:56

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 17:59

@Molly499 , that’s simply not my experience of RM and various other people on the thread agree. For me, personally, they have been known to leave the item outside my door and claim it has been left in my ‘safe space’ which I don’t have since I work from home most days and I’d rather they take the item back to the depot so I can rearrange delivery if for some reason I’m not in.

My favourite was in the bin. On bin day. It was at the top of my drive awaiting collection. I was so pissed off about the rigmarole of it all, the seller kept saying I'd had the bloody thing. I eventually downloaded the CCTV to prove what had happened and got a refund from my CC provider.

Winederlust · 30/10/2023 19:57

Sellerseller1 · 30/10/2023 15:05

Yes I believe so but if they have actually delivered it, who's responsibility is it then if someone steals it after it's been delivered? If the buyer selects a safeplace which turns out to actually not be safe I don't know why that is then my responsibility to be out of pocket for.

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Ask the buyer to confirm what the 'safe place' was
Ask them to send a photo of the 'while you were out' card that Royal Mail should post when leaving an item. It should confirm where it was left (although can largely depend on postie).

This should help confirm whether the 'safe place' was actually secure and therefore the likelihood of it being stolen.

It would then be for you to refund the buyer take it up with RM if you're satisfied the parcel hasn’t been successfully delivered.

Growlybear83 · 30/10/2023 19:57

My understanding is that as a seller, it's entirely your responsibility to make sure that your buyers receive the items they've paid for. If something has been stolen then you will need to claim from Royal Mail, not your buyer.

Callyem · 30/10/2023 19:59

Your responsibility. Postage companies seem to decide their own safe spaces and mine frequently is left on the actual doorstep in full view of the main road! Luckily, nothing has gone missing as yet but the 'safe space' isn't always designated.

biethdayquestion · 30/10/2023 20:01

paintingvenice · 30/10/2023 14:57

How does one provide evidence that they haven’t got something?

Im sure the police have better things to do with their time than hunt down missing parcels

Empty hand?

BurnoutGP · 30/10/2023 20:02

Pretty sure you do need to refund and YOU take it up with courier. That's rhe actual law. Check martin Lewis site. You really should know these things if you run an online business.

Growlybear83 · 30/10/2023 20:03

BaconMassive · 30/10/2023 15:21

Royal Mail wouldn't make up a safe space it will have been designated by the recipient.

That's really not the case in my experience. I have never designated a safe space with Royal Mail, but I've had many emails over the last couple of years when I've been out to say that a parcel has been delivered to my safe place, which usually means the postman has left it on my doorstep in full view of anyone passing. There is a real problem in my area with people following delivery drivers, including the post office, on their rounds and stealing parcels that they leave when customers are out.

UnderwaterSpaceCadet · 30/10/2023 20:06

HunterHearstHelmsley · 30/10/2023 19:49

It's not on her if she didn't select signed for. I never pay extra for signed for unless it will arrive quicker. It's for the seller's benefit, not the buyer's.

Neither is it up to the buyer to claim from Royal Mail if they (RM) chose an unsafe safe place.

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I’ve had a couple of signed-for deliveries signed for by the postman anyway! So that doesn’t necessarily make it any more secure.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 20:20

UnderwaterSpaceCadet · 30/10/2023 20:06

I’ve had a couple of signed-for deliveries signed for by the postman anyway! So that doesn’t necessarily make it any more secure.

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They started doing this during covid and some of them have never stopped!

TheFireflies · 30/10/2023 20:21

Haffiana · 30/10/2023 18:02

OP, you really need to learn about distance selling & mail order regulations. It isn't a matter of what you think is right and fair, it is a matter of law.

You were paid by the seller to deliver the item to them. They haven't got it. They have paid you money and have received nothing. Therefore you have not fulfilled the contract between you and the seller and you must make good by refunding or sending another item.

If the carrier - in this case Royal Mail - is at fault for the non-receipt then you need to claim back from them, because you paid them and they did not fulfil their contract with you.

The buyer has NO CONTRACT with Royal Mail and cannot claim for loss from Royal Mail as they did not purchase anything from Royal Mail. You did.

"The customer selected this option at checkout."

Please understand that the delivery method is to protect YOU from non-receipt claims. Do not imagine that you can pass this liability to the buyer by such an 'option'. The buyer is under no obligation to choose a more expensive postage in order to protect YOU from a non -eceipt claim. Going forwards you need to ensure that the postage method allows you to claim the full amount if the item is not received by the buyer and to charge accordingly.

And yes, you will have the odd claim from a buyer that you may be suspicious about. However there is nothing you can do about that except make sure you choose a delivery method that protects you. You may have to pay extra for insurance for certain types of items and for expensive items. Any business will know to add in that possibility of lost items into to their profit margin calculations.

This is precisely the right advice.

Galatine · 30/10/2023 20:42

Before you decide whether to refund or not remember the wise advice I was given: You will never win an argument with a customer. Because if you do, you will lose the customer. That customer will tell anyone and everyone who will listen and they won’t patronise your business either.
in the long run it may cost more to refuse a refund.

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 20:47

Orange67 · 30/10/2023 19:35

That the buyer will be the one selecting the safe space in most cases. You can see lots of posts before yours that contract that, from personal experiences.

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You’re saying the seller selects safe space? How could the seller make that call?