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AIBU?

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Original poster

Aibu to not refund this buyer?

286 replies

Sellerseller1 · 30/10/2023 14:48

Have an online website selling handmade items.

Buyers item was shipped with royal mail tracked delivery, tracking info says it was delivered to a safe place.

Customer has now emailed to say item must have been stolen from said safe place and therefore they want me to refund.

Aibu to say no? I have sympathy if it genuinely was stolen but firstly I can't just refund everyone who messages to say something has been stolen with no evidence it actually has been and secondly, I've fulfilled my obligation in that it's been sent and marked as delivered on the tracking page.

If they come back and it seems they are actually telling the truth I.e. trying to correspond with royal mail/ the police then I may as a gesture of good will replace it but I don't think I need to straight away? (Or even at all technically).

Fwiw item wasn't cheap and took a lot of work.

OP posts:
Molly499 · 30/10/2023 17:53

There is a lot of incorrect information here.

  1. it is the sellers responsibility to deliver the goods, agreed, but…
  2. Royal Mail safe space - this is usually chosen by the buyer who assumes responsibility for the item. Royal Mail are usually quite good about this, other companies vary a lot and some just dump them. 
       To do this the buyer would have to use the tracking for the parcel and     
       select ‘leave in a safe place’

A Royal Mail claim takes weeks. Check the GPS coordinates on the proof of delivery and any photo.

I run an online business and use Royal Mail daily, you would be amazed at how many people say things were not delivered when tracking shows their front door and a picture of parcel. It is much, much worse these days.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 17:59

@Molly499 , that’s simply not my experience of RM and various other people on the thread agree. For me, personally, they have been known to leave the item outside my door and claim it has been left in my ‘safe space’ which I don’t have since I work from home most days and I’d rather they take the item back to the depot so I can rearrange delivery if for some reason I’m not in.

Orange67 · 30/10/2023 18:00

Molly499 · 30/10/2023 17:53

There is a lot of incorrect information here.

  1. it is the sellers responsibility to deliver the goods, agreed, but…
  2. Royal Mail safe space - this is usually chosen by the buyer who assumes responsibility for the item. Royal Mail are usually quite good about this, other companies vary a lot and some just dump them. 
       To do this the buyer would have to use the tracking for the parcel and     
       select ‘leave in a safe place’

A Royal Mail claim takes weeks. Check the GPS coordinates on the proof of delivery and any photo.

I run an online business and use Royal Mail daily, you would be amazed at how many people say things were not delivered when tracking shows their front door and a picture of parcel. It is much, much worse these days.

Your post is incorrect, the irony.

Haffiana · 30/10/2023 18:02

OP, you really need to learn about distance selling & mail order regulations. It isn't a matter of what you think is right and fair, it is a matter of law.

You were paid by the seller to deliver the item to them. They haven't got it. They have paid you money and have received nothing. Therefore you have not fulfilled the contract between you and the seller and you must make good by refunding or sending another item.

If the carrier - in this case Royal Mail - is at fault for the non-receipt then you need to claim back from them, because you paid them and they did not fulfil their contract with you.

The buyer has NO CONTRACT with Royal Mail and cannot claim for loss from Royal Mail as they did not purchase anything from Royal Mail. You did.

"The customer selected this option at checkout."

Please understand that the delivery method is to protect YOU from non-receipt claims. Do not imagine that you can pass this liability to the buyer by such an 'option'. The buyer is under no obligation to choose a more expensive postage in order to protect YOU from a non -eceipt claim. Going forwards you need to ensure that the postage method allows you to claim the full amount if the item is not received by the buyer and to charge accordingly.

And yes, you will have the odd claim from a buyer that you may be suspicious about. However there is nothing you can do about that except make sure you choose a delivery method that protects you. You may have to pay extra for insurance for certain types of items and for expensive items. Any business will know to add in that possibility of lost items into to their profit margin calculations.

margotrose · 30/10/2023 18:03

I run an online business and use Royal Mail daily, you would be amazed at how many people say things were not delivered when tracking shows their front door and a picture of parcel.

A photo of someone's front door isn't proof of safe delivery.

I once received an e-mail saying my parcel had been delivered by RM and left in a safe space. They dutifully took a photo of the parcel by my front door as proof. Unfortunately I wasn't home at the time and by the time I got back several hours later, it had gone - never to be seen again.

Moc25 · 30/10/2023 18:07

Haffiana · 30/10/2023 18:02

OP, you really need to learn about distance selling & mail order regulations. It isn't a matter of what you think is right and fair, it is a matter of law.

You were paid by the seller to deliver the item to them. They haven't got it. They have paid you money and have received nothing. Therefore you have not fulfilled the contract between you and the seller and you must make good by refunding or sending another item.

If the carrier - in this case Royal Mail - is at fault for the non-receipt then you need to claim back from them, because you paid them and they did not fulfil their contract with you.

The buyer has NO CONTRACT with Royal Mail and cannot claim for loss from Royal Mail as they did not purchase anything from Royal Mail. You did.

"The customer selected this option at checkout."

Please understand that the delivery method is to protect YOU from non-receipt claims. Do not imagine that you can pass this liability to the buyer by such an 'option'. The buyer is under no obligation to choose a more expensive postage in order to protect YOU from a non -eceipt claim. Going forwards you need to ensure that the postage method allows you to claim the full amount if the item is not received by the buyer and to charge accordingly.

And yes, you will have the odd claim from a buyer that you may be suspicious about. However there is nothing you can do about that except make sure you choose a delivery method that protects you. You may have to pay extra for insurance for certain types of items and for expensive items. Any business will know to add in that possibility of lost items into to their profit margin calculations.

This, and I've had RM deliver my parcel to somebody else's house, take a picture of the parcel in their porch and claim it was delivered.

I never did find out where it was delivered to, but the company I ordered from did the right thing and refunded me.

Molly499 · 30/10/2023 18:07

The photo is usually of an open front door with a person standing in the doorway.

margotrose · 30/10/2023 18:10

Molly499 · 30/10/2023 18:07

The photo is usually of an open front door with a person standing in the doorway.

Do you have proof it's their front door and not someone else's, though?

We've had parcels delivered for our neighbours and they've photographed my foot and an open door. But you can't tell by the photo that it's my door/foot.

MinnieL · 30/10/2023 18:12

There’s a lot of assumptions here.

I’ve had parcels delivered and left in a ‘safe place’ which turned out to be outside my front door and no I didn’t ask them to place it there. A lot of couriers leave parcels whenever they can if the customer isn’t at home. Is there a picture of the ‘safe place’ and where it was left?

If not then the customer really hasn’t done anything wrong. You should be the one to contact Royal Mail to ask what’s happened to the parcel. Sometimes couriers say it’s been delivered just so they can get paid for their round but will deliver it the next day. A lot of things could have happened. I know, I worked for Evri for three years (not a courier)

Coffeerum · 30/10/2023 18:16

Did the buyer actually select the safe space though? The number of times I’ve had something delivered and it’s marked as “delivered to safe space” but it’s just dumped outside the front door.
Either way its on you to contact the delivery company for more info.

Molly499 · 30/10/2023 18:19

If there is ever any doubt about the correct front door then Google street view will sort that out if there is a problem.

the only thing in question here is who chose the ‘safe space’. If it was the buyer then the responsibility for the parcel is on them, if it was the delivery driver then it is down to the seller to sort out.

JustWimpy · 30/10/2023 18:21

My experience of RM's 'safe space' is that it often means they threw it over a hedge into someone else's garden. The onus is on the seller to investigate with RM and have it found.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 18:21

Molly499 · 30/10/2023 18:07

The photo is usually of an open front door with a person standing in the doorway.

That’s not a delivery to a safe space then, is it? It’s delivery direct to the recipient.

Also, as said, unless you ask for a signature, can you prove it’s the correct house?

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 18:23

Molly499 · 30/10/2023 18:19

If there is ever any doubt about the correct front door then Google street view will sort that out if there is a problem.

the only thing in question here is who chose the ‘safe space’. If it was the buyer then the responsibility for the parcel is on them, if it was the delivery driver then it is down to the seller to sort out.

Can you confirm you’ve had legal advice to that effect? It seems to contradict what has been said above about the law requiring the item to reach the recipient.

Riola · 30/10/2023 18:25

OP, you really need to learn about distance selling & mail order regulations. It isn't a matter of what you think is right and fair, it is a matter of law.

Precisely, everyone who sets up a business should perhaps have to read some kind of short government guide outlining basic legislation. A seller should really not be so unaware of their responsibilities.

margotrose · 30/10/2023 18:25

Molly499 · 30/10/2023 18:19

If there is ever any doubt about the correct front door then Google street view will sort that out if there is a problem.

the only thing in question here is who chose the ‘safe space’. If it was the buyer then the responsibility for the parcel is on them, if it was the delivery driver then it is down to the seller to sort out.

Google Street View proves nothing - ours hasn't been updated for seven years.

fuzzleberry · 30/10/2023 18:25

@CrabbiesGingerBeer if the package has reached the safe place designated by the customer it has been delivered and reached them

easylikeasundaymorn · 30/10/2023 18:26

Sellerseller1 · 30/10/2023 15:25

The customer selected this option at checkout.

Show quote history

so they had the option to choose a signed for delivery but chose not to? That's on her then!

I think yes you need to confirm (with RM) if it definitely was left in a safe space and if so where that was - at the moment you've got no proof that it wasn't handed to her. If the buyer had designated the safe space (you can do so with royal mail) - and it was then stollen then that's her problem unfortunately - she should have chosen a better safe place! In the same way, if her ''safe space' was with a neighbour and the neighbour then stole the parcel you can't be held responsible.

If it was Royal mail who selected the safe space and it might not have been safe then she can try claiming against them - either way it's not your fault if she had the option to choose a more secure delivery but decided against it - you fulfilled your end of the contract by using the delivery service she requested.

If you only gave the option of not signed for then that might be slightly different.

Dustinsdart · 30/10/2023 18:27

Definitely check the gps coordinates for the delivery with Royal Mail - I’ve been a customer in a scenario where the parcel hasn’t arrived but Royal Mail had recorded it on the tracking as delivered. The seller told me it was my problem because they had fulfilled their side of the contract- presumably they thought I was trying to scam them.
Anyway, once I contacted Royal Mail and looked at the gps coordinates, it turned out they had actually delivered it to a different house on a different street.

If you check and the coordinates prove it was delivered to them, I’d say the issue is third. There are always warnings about leaving items in safe spaces being at your own risk.

Gribbit987 · 30/10/2023 18:31

Lincslady53 · 30/10/2023 17:22

As the seller you are responsible for the goods until the customer has it, so you need to sort it out with the courier, and replace or refund. Seems unfair, but that is the law, The consumer rights act and distance selling regulations are the bits of law that cover this. Depending on the value of the goods you can insure the delivery, but when we sold via our website, we opted not to pay insurance and just replace, without question, any lost or damaged goods. In 12 years we only had a couple of issues so turned out much cheaper than paying insurance.

As a business seller you should know the above.

You need to familiarise yourself with the law surrounding distance selling and stop acting so unprofessionally.

Coffeerum · 30/10/2023 18:34

@easylikeasundaymorn If it was Royal mail who selected the safe space and it might not have been safe then she can try claiming against them - either way it's not your fault

Incorrect. If Royal Mail chose a safe space that wasn’t safe then it is the OP’s problem. It’s not down to the buyer to claim against RM.

Snugglemonkey · 30/10/2023 18:47

I think you should tbh. You pro ably need to set prices to account for some chances, and this may be a chancer, but if I read that someone was left with no order or refund in a review, no way would I order.

If I ordered from you, I consider it a contract between us. The courier is an extension of you. I only care about getting my stuff. So I think you need to chase up the courier, claim from them etc

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 18:50

Sellerseller1 · 30/10/2023 15:05

Yes I believe so but if they have actually delivered it, who's responsibility is it then if someone steals it after it's been delivered? If the buyer selects a safeplace which turns out to actually not be safe I don't know why that is then my responsibility to be out of pocket for.

Show quote history

The contract is with you not the delivery company. You have an agreement with the delivery company.

warriorofhopelessness · 30/10/2023 18:51

The buyer’s contract is with you so you have to refund. It’s up to you to reclaim from Royal Mail. It is well known that people are stealing deliveries. No place is a safe place unless it is behind lock and key.