Aibu to not refund this buyer?

[Sellerseller1]

Have an online website selling handmade items.

Buyers item was shipped with royal mail tracked delivery, tracking info says it was delivered to a safe place.

Customer has now emailed to say item must have been stolen from said safe place and therefore they want me to refund.

Aibu to say no? I have sympathy if it genuinely was stolen but firstly I can't just refund everyone who messages to say something has been stolen with no evidence it actually has been and secondly, I've fulfilled my obligation in that it's been sent and marked as delivered on the tracking page.

If they come back and it seems they are actually telling the truth I.e. trying to correspond with royal mail/ the police then I may as a gesture of good will replace it but I don't think I need to straight away? (Or even at all technically).

Fwiw item wasn't cheap and took a lot of work.

I had a small online business for a short period during COVID. We used online payment services and had the highest level of payment security available through those services. In a 2 month period we had 15k of fraudulent purchases eg customers saying item wasnt delivered or had been stolen, the payment platform refunded purchasers automatically and our account with them was suspended. There was nothing we could do. We closed down the business and I gather our experience was sadly extremely common for online sales.

Would the buyer have to report to the police? If it hasn't been delivered to them (regardless of being left on a doorstep, in a bush, behind the neighbours Great Dane) then it isn't their responsibility? Until it's actually delivered to the buyer it is the sellers responsibility.

As I mentioned before, I've had parcels left in my bin. As well as being given to my next door neighbour, who I do not have a good relationship with. The regular postie knows not to give it to her as she won't give it back. Stand in posties have delivered to her, I'm not going to report it to the police etc. I didn't give permission for it to be given to her.

I've worked as customer service for companies. You need to contact royal mail, tell them the buyers parcel is missing despite being marked as delivered. I had someone claim their parcel wasn't received despite being mark3d as received (something I personally sent). They looked into it and driver was in the street at the door on his GPS etc so they marked it as received. If the buyer then didn't agree it was up to them to dispute that with royal mail but initially it will be you that has to do it. Royal mail can be awful to get replies from but keep at them!

This sounds so stressful. I have a small online business and I’ve had almost exactly this happen with an order, although it was a low value item.

Once Royal Mail mark it as delivered they won’t allow you to contact them regarding it being missing, they will want your customer to do that. I personally wouldn’t offer a refund as Royal Mail won’t refund you so you will be out of pocket. I’d send a very apologetic reply to the customer with a screenshot of the delivery proof from Royal Mail and let them know they need to contact Royal Mail and you’d be happy to speak to Royal Mail to help the case etc.

I hope it turns up

Why would they be asking for a refund straight away if they genuinely thought it had been stolen and not asking for a replacement? Why do they think it’s been stolen? What have they done to look for the item?
Id be asking these questions before sending a refund straight away

I don’t think Royal Mail will do much at all if the parcel was delivered to her safe place with a photo as evidence that it is in the correct location.
When you set up your safe place with Royal Mail you agree that you are taking responsibility of the parcel from then on as if it was handed to you directly. It’s in the terms that come up when you allow this option!
Personally I think this would be on the buyer, they could have not agreed a safe place with Royal Mail & they would have attempted to redeliver!

Unfortunately, as multiple people have said on the thread, if you don’t pick a safe place, RM often picks one for you and leaves the package anyway.

The so called safe place is often completely unsafe (including in the bin on bin day). My delivery person isn’t that bad - they just leave it outside my front door in full view of anyone passing by.

@CrabbiesGingerBeer
Totally agree IF she didn’t have a safe place saved & then OP will need to contact RM to claim. However if she did & RM delivered it to this safe place & it’s then been stolen, it would be on her.

When I have had some things delivered they often take pic of where it has been left - not all have done this and I don't know if it is Royal Mail. What is the buyers feedback like?

As part of the criteria for this delivery option the receiving customer has to accept that Royal Mail take no responsibility for the item going missing once left in a safe place. I personally wouldn’t refund it - there’s no evidence it was taken and they’ve chosen this option

I agree and I’ve said exactly that several times in this thread.

The issue is, it’s for the OP to prove it was properly delivered, not for the buyer to prove it wasn’t.

I don’t have a safe place registered with Royal Mail. Two weeks ago I couldn’t find a package that they said was delivered to “safe place”. The seller was confused as although they hadn’t taken a picture, they pinned my address correctly on the map. The buyer can’t raise the issue with Royal Mail, the seller has to, as it says on their website. I found it, after a neighbour suggested I check my recycling bin!!! That’s where it was, luckily it was bins week… I’m still really angry, apparently putting things in recycling is very much a thing. Hate Royal Mail.

There's a lot of bad advice on here. Denying refunds / demanding why she wants a refund / asking for a police report etc are all contrary to the buyer's rights IF the item was not delivered to a place the buyer specifically indicated. The OP has not clarified this very critical point. If the buyer is entitled to a refund by law, she doesn't have to justify why (the fact that her item wasn't delivered is sufficient) or provide a police report (the police may refuse to provide one anyway if there is no evidence of any crime being committed).

Leaving aside WHAT the law requires, it does seem there is a real gap here where the law protects consumers including ones who are not acting honestly. It seems like a real issue for businesses. But the alternative is to only deliver things when someone opens their front door (or nominates a safe place), and then no one would ever get their stuff and we would probably all complain about that more (and order less stuff). So ultimately the sellers and delivery companies take a risk because it's preferable to the risk of customers not ordering stuff at all.

I’ve had items misplaced during delivery before and I’ve never gone straight to the seller unless I’ve contacted the delivery company first and they’ve told me to speak to them. The fact they went straight to you for a refund instead of asking you to see if you can check anything first seems a bit iffy to me. It clearly went to their property if they know it was ‘stolen’ so it’s not lost, in someone else’s shed or at Petes down the next road.

They police may not issue a full report but all calls have a CAD number that can be used in these situations. I had to have a broken window fixed.

It would never occur to me not to go straight to the seller since I know I have no contract with the delivery company. Also, as far as I’m concerned, if the seller’s chosen delivery company has screwed up, the seller can put in the time and effort sorting things out - their responsibility, their problem.

I never said they didn’t have that responsibility but I’ve always found I’ve had better assistance from the delivery company instead of waiting for the seller to deal with the issue. Luckily it’s only happened to me a few times and it’s always been rectified quickly.

Royal mail have been known to say it is delivered but it isn't to make theit quota. It happened to me and then they delivered a day later. Also, RM aren't the best. I've had items that are signed for parcels and they have faked my signature. I'd raise it as it goes around in circles and I would want to seem as though I was helpful to my customer. A lot to be said for repeat business.

When I get notified that a delivery is being made for something purchased online, there is a box to tick as an option for Royal Mail should I be away from home at the time of delivery. I get choices such as with neighbour - specific number - outbuilding, porch, safe place etc. If selecting safe place it asks for details - behind Wheely bin, back of building, behind gate etc.
IF, and it is only an if, the recipient has advised Royal Mail of their safe place preference then surely that is for them to ensure that they have nominated somewhere actually safe?

Of course it is (both legally and morally) - no one is disputing that. What a lot of people are disputing is the suggestion that the only way RM will leave an item is if the recipient has chosen a safe place and therefore the fact RM left the item at the address must mean the OP can deny all responsibility (not legally true if the RM picked their own safe place and left the item there or if they left the item somewhere other than the chosen safe place).

There must be a gap in the market for a courier that is not shit (even if it costs slightly more?)

The refund is down to you sorry, and as for the what ifs, what if the person is telling the truth and the courier you selected lost it? They’re hardly going to use you again or recommend you to a friend and if anything they’ll tell people to avoid using you I would if my parcel hadn’t turned up.

you and only you can raise a claim with Royal Mail, I’ve had parcels say they’ve been delivered in the past and haven’t received them, they say they’ve been left in a “safe place”, I’ve never specified a safe place and if people ring I ask them to leave it with a neighbour. We’ve had parcels left at the bottom of the drive before when anyone can take it, also my postman has a tendency to leave me other people’s mail etc and I have to walk up to their house and drop it off what’s to say this hasn’t happened and the persons house it was left at hasn’t just decided to keep it, this happened with my dad.

Personally I think you have to refund it in good faith and chase with Royal Mail yourself.

If the package was not delivered correctly - YOU will need to refund the customer and then make the claim against Royal Mail. When you the customer paid for the item, you agreed to get the item to her. The item hasn't turn up so YOU have broken the agreement and need to refund the customer. When you posted the item a second agreement was made between YOU and ROYAL MAIL that they would safely deliver the item for you. If they have failed in this, THEY need to refund you, but you the can't pass this to the customer, because they had no part in your agreement with Royal Mail. It would be reasonable to check with Royal Mail what they think happened though. Royal Mail should either show you evidence that they did a reasonable thing to fulfill your request, like deliver to the customers safe place. In which case you can show this to the customer to say that you fulfilled your agreement and what happen next is on them so they don't need a refund. Or Royal Mail did something stupid like lost the parcel or threw it over the fence into her pond. In which case YOU broke your agreement to the customer, and so you refund her, and then you get that money back from Royal Mail who broke their agreement to you.

I've had a small on line business for almost 8 years now. In that time I've probably had half a dozen items go astray and have had to refund about three times. My normal response is:

1. Ask the person to check around the 'safe area' and with neighbours. One woman in Covid lockdown had a parcel supposedly left on her doorstep. It was actually in the bushes next to the doorstep...I'm guessing the postie tried to hide in for safety but didn't tell her that.

2. If it's still missing I offer a new item (cheaper for me to remake than to refund obviously as I add on a profit margin when I sell)

3. If that's not acceptable (and it usually is as customers don't want the hassle finding a replacement as long as you can get it to them quickly) then I refund. I can't accuse a customer of lying - I have no proof and I've been in that situation myself before. It's not nice to be doubted.

4. I then take it up with the courier (I use RM) and we go from there. Not the customer's problem to sort out.

I've either been very lucky with my customers or most people are very honest.

I've even had a customer get back in touch with me after Christmas a couple of years ago. She'd been away for the weekend when the parcel had been delivered, her neighbour had taken it off her doorstep as it was raining and then subsequently went away themselves without telling her they had her parcel!

Then, when they got home, came round with the missing parcel! She made arrangements to pay for it again. And, as I'd been civil about it, it was a funny conversation to have. So most people are honest.

You can't do anything about dishonest people unfortunately. The consumer acts are very clear and you have to follow the law if you're in business. But you can ask them to double check with neighbours, other people in the house, and other 'safe' areas just in case.

There is - UPS