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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Aibu to not refund this buyer?

286 replies

Sellerseller1 · 30/10/2023 14:48

Have an online website selling handmade items.

Buyers item was shipped with royal mail tracked delivery, tracking info says it was delivered to a safe place.

Customer has now emailed to say item must have been stolen from said safe place and therefore they want me to refund.

Aibu to say no? I have sympathy if it genuinely was stolen but firstly I can't just refund everyone who messages to say something has been stolen with no evidence it actually has been and secondly, I've fulfilled my obligation in that it's been sent and marked as delivered on the tracking page.

If they come back and it seems they are actually telling the truth I.e. trying to correspond with royal mail/ the police then I may as a gesture of good will replace it but I don't think I need to straight away? (Or even at all technically).

Fwiw item wasn't cheap and took a lot of work.

OP posts:
CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 20:57

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 20:47

You’re saying the seller selects safe space? How could the seller make that call?

Show quote history

No, we are saying RM leaves the parcel in a random location such as on doorsteps in full view or in bins on bin day(!) then records it as being left in a ‘safe space’ despite the fact the recipient never chose a safe space and no sane person would think the location chosen was actually safe.

Orange67 · 30/10/2023 21:25

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 20:47

You’re saying the seller selects safe space? How could the seller make that call?

Show quote history

I can't tell if you're being deliberately difficult or not..

The post men decide that your doorstep is your safe space most of the time. Read the thread?

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 22:38

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 20:57

No, we are saying RM leaves the parcel in a random location such as on doorsteps in full view or in bins on bin day(!) then records it as being left in a ‘safe space’ despite the fact the recipient never chose a safe space and no sane person would think the location chosen was actually safe.

Show quote history

So what exactly did Molly say that was wrong then?

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 22:39

Orange67 · 30/10/2023 21:25

I can't tell if you're being deliberately difficult or not..

The post men decide that your doorstep is your safe space most of the time. Read the thread?

Show quote history

Not in my experience, you have to specify with Royal Mail.

Riola · 30/10/2023 22:46

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 22:39

Not in my experience, you have to specify with Royal Mail.

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Well as you can read on this thread many of us - including me - haven’t chosen a safe space and Royal mail or other delivery couriers have decided for us.

Solmum1964 · 30/10/2023 22:48

I had a similar issue with a different courier leaving something on my front doorstep when nobody was home at the time and the parcel had gone missing by the time I returned. The supplier tried arguing that the parcel had been delivered because the courier supplied a photo of the parcel, on my doorstep saying delivered.
I was able to quote something I had read online: The law says that unless the customer agrees to the goods being left ‘in a safe place’, which I didn't, those goods remain at the risk of the retailer until the consumer has taken physical possession of them — which means that if they go missing or are damaged in transit, it is actually the retailer’s problem. So it does very much depend on whether the customer agreed to a safe place being used, or, as other people have suggested, the post person chose their own 'safe' place!

Ohmylovejune · 30/10/2023 22:54

I had this happen to me although I was in and don't believe it was ever left "in a safe place". No photo was ever provided by Yodel.

Ebay fell on side of seller as it was proved delivered.

I still completely disagree that leaving in a safe place decided by a driver and not designated by me, is delivered. Its not. My house fronts a busy road with plenty of passing strangers. I never note a safe place because I don't have one.

I don't buy off ebay now. Their buyer protection is worthless in my mind.

wesurecouldstandgladioli · 30/10/2023 23:00

The fact that this buyer went straight to 'I require a refund' tells me they are probaby lying.

Most people would try and resolve first.

TheCave · 30/10/2023 23:03

If the buyer asked the courier to deliver to the safe place then risk (including for theft) passes to the buyer on delivery to that place. Annoyingly the actual law doesn't explicitly clarify this but this is the common interpretation of the law e.g. see guidance endorsed by Trading Standards here https://www.businesscompanion.info/focus/delivery-charges/part-1-legal-requirements-basics

If you have proof of the item being delivered to the relevant safe place, you could therefore refuse to refund. But at the expense of potential reputational damage. Not sure Royal Mail will compensate you or buyer if they have proof that they delivered as instructed, as they aren't liable for the theft either.

Part 1. Legal requirements - the basics | Business Companion

Looking at the legal requirements around delivery charges

https://www.businesscompanion.info/focus/delivery-charges/part-1-legal-requirements-basics

TheCave · 30/10/2023 23:10

And btw a lot of advice on this thread is entirely wrong so be careful in relying on it. The position entirely depends on whether the buyer selected the safe space and whether there is proof that the item was delivered there. If yes and yes, you aren't liable to refund. If no, then you are and you should seek compensation from Royal Mail.

jadey1991 · 30/10/2023 23:13

Sellerseller1 · 30/10/2023 14:59

Unfortunately I don't think royal mail will pay out their insurance if their tracking is saying delivered to the correct address.

I have responded and asked the buyer to contact royal mail and said that I will do so as well to show willing on my part to help.

I just don't know how I can be expected to refund or replace every item that someone just decides to tell me has been stolen, obviously I would if the tracking wasn't showing as delivered but how can I know its not a scam and what's to stop every other buyer just saying the same and getting a refund?

Did royal mail state where they left the parcel? Or show any evidence of the safe place

Falzarega · 30/10/2023 23:16

Oh no!

I’m going to blame royal mail. Today they left my parcel in my wheelie bin, balanced on bags of dog poo. I’ve told them numerous times not to leave items if I’m out, just return to the post office like you’re supposed to and I’ll pick it up, but postmen absolutely love throwing parcels in bins it seems. And if it’s bin day and the bin men empty the bin, there goes your parcel straight into landfill.

Whoever paid roual mail needs to take it up with royal mail. This isn’t your buyer’s fault.

Sorry about your hard work :( next time do recorded signed-for delivery and charge the seller for it.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 23:26

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 22:38

So what exactly did Molly say that was wrong then?

Show quote history

The bit where she said:

To do this the buyer would have to use the tracking for the parcel and
select ‘leave in a safe place’

In the experience of multiple people on this thread, if you don’t pick ‘leave in a safe space’, RM will leave it somewhere on / near your property and mark tracking as ‘left in a safe space’ anyway.

ExTheCheater · 30/10/2023 23:27

Would you not have to raise it with royal mail? My elderly grandmother sent me something that went missing and I contacted royal mail and was told she has to do it as she sent it. I didn't want to cause her hassle so we left it.

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 23:28

Riola · 30/10/2023 22:46

Well as you can read on this thread many of us - including me - haven’t chosen a safe space and Royal mail or other delivery couriers have decided for us.

Show quote history

Then complain because that is not their policy.

Also molly said USUALLY not always. Her reply is bang on as far as I’m concerned.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 23:29

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 22:39

Not in my experience, you have to specify with Royal Mail.

Show quote history

And multiple people on this thread have a different experience.

For the avoidance of doubt, none of the parcels left in full view on my doorstep by RM have ever been stolen so I’ve never had to ask for a refund - I’ve got no reason to lie and I’d appreciate it if you’d stop implying that’s what we are all doing.

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 23:34

AnneValentine · 30/10/2023 23:28

Then complain because that is not their policy.

Also molly said USUALLY not always. Her reply is bang on as far as I’m concerned.

Show quote history

You appear to have missed the following paragraph where she said

To do this the buyer would have to use the tracking for the parcel and
select ‘leave in a safe place’

No ‘usually’ included, just an incorrect statement that the buyer must have chosen the safe space.

EsmeSusanOgg · 30/10/2023 23:38

YABU it wasn't delivered. Royal Mail did not have it to a resident. Legally, as the retailer, you are obliged to refund then. You then claim from Royal Mail. Ensure you use signed for in future.

rrrrrreatt · 30/10/2023 23:38

I never mark leave in a safe place because I don’t have one, this doesn’t deter people delivering in the slightest - apparently my cardboard bin in front yard is the safe place I didn’t know I wanted. Not only is it not secure at all but, if it’s been recently emptied, I can’t reach the bottom so I have to wait for my partner to come home to get it out.

Royal Mail did it last week and Amazon keep doing it, no matter how many times I ask them not to. They shouldn’t but they do.

ACGTHelixA · 30/10/2023 23:40

Sellerseller1 · 30/10/2023 15:21

Yes this is my point. They have just sent me a short email saying "parcel has been stolen, i require a refund from you as ive been unable to use the item"

Show quote history

thats very suspect, could you email them and say they may need to discuss the matter with the police as you have contacted them and have said about x item going missing and see what the buyer says, to see if they are bluffing ?

CrabbiesGingerBeer · 30/10/2023 23:47

EsmeSusanOgg · 30/10/2023 23:38

YABU it wasn't delivered. Royal Mail did not have it to a resident. Legally, as the retailer, you are obliged to refund then. You then claim from Royal Mail. Ensure you use signed for in future.

Actually, legally it does look like if the buyer chooses ‘safe space’, they are assuming the risk and (providing the item was left in the correct place), no refund is required.

The difficulty comes with establishing:

  1. The buyer chose ‘safe space’ (since RM has a habit of doing this themselves); and if so
  2. The item was left in the correct safe space (again, not some random location the postman thought was suitable).
EasterIssland · 30/10/2023 23:51

Im a bit surprised by your attitude to be honest. Also , unsure how much the item was worth and whether you’re a business , but if I was the buyer and you refused to refund the money (that you can claim off Royal Mail) I’d make sure everyone knows about your behaviour when things go wrong leaving you a bad review

Ohnoooooooo · 30/10/2023 23:54

Buyer choose the postal option, buyer choose the 'safe' place and now you are possible out of pocket. I get why you would be annoyed. Frankly, I think if you end up needing to take the hit for this I would issue them a refund rather than redoing it as this may happen again.

ACGTHelixA · 31/10/2023 00:00

EasterIssland · 30/10/2023 23:51

Im a bit surprised by your attitude to be honest. Also , unsure how much the item was worth and whether you’re a business , but if I was the buyer and you refused to refund the money (that you can claim off Royal Mail) I’d make sure everyone knows about your behaviour when things go wrong leaving you a bad review

the problem then is if royal mail absolve themselves of the issue and if it was delivered correctly then how can royal mail be liable ?

MidnightMeltdown · 31/10/2023 00:01

It entirely depends on whether the buyer specified the 'safe place' for the parcel to be delivered to

If they didn't, then the seller is responsible for the missing parcel because it wasn't delivered as expected. You will have to take it up with the courier.