to be disgusted at having to pay fees for a deceased family member

[LK2610]

I’d really appreciate any advice you can give. Our lovely grandad passed away 1 year ago. He lived in a block of ‘supported’ apartments for the elderly. Unfortunately my parents are struggling to sell his flat due to the slow housing market. It’s been empty for almost a year.

The thing that shocks me is that my mum is still having to pay a full monthly service charge for the apartment, even though it’s empty. It’s costing hundreds of pounds a month and soon my grandad’s estate will have run out of money. The building managers refuse to let my mum have a discount on the charges, even though half of the things my grandad obviously can’t use.

This charge includes things like water, electricity, TV licence, daily food in the restaurant, cleaning, 24/hour support, emergency call system - obviously he’s no longer using these things.

She’ll also soon have to pay full council tax on the flat because she can no longer benefit from the 1 person discount because my grandad is no longer here. This shocked me the most. It feels so insensitive, like a punishment for him not being here.

I’m sad that she’s being forced to pay all this money at such a difficult time (she’s still very upset) that she and my dad could have, as I’m sure my grandad would have wanted.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? I’ve suggested she gets legal advice but that’s more costly and she’s in her 70s so it’s quite stressful for her.

I'm glad you now realise that this is the norm with these types of properties.

Realistically, the best thing to do is to slash the price to get a sale. But you need to do your homework to see what else is for sale within the complex so that you are the most attractive in terms of both price and presentation. Does it need repainting, new carpets etc? The main thing is to offload to then offload the ongoing necessary fees that were part of the contract and are now ongoing.

Have you spoken to the council? They have discretion over whether to charge the full amount. Usually you don't pay for the first year after a person's death (6 months freeze on council tax, plue 6 months extension one you have applied for probate). Given the difficulty selling the place due to the economic climate I would write to the council and explain. That said councils are pretty cash strapped at the mo.

Sadly this is a very common situation. Absolutely awful that grieving families have to pay monthly fees until properties are sold. We had this with my nan and the only thing you can do is, as others have said, reduce the price for quicker sale.

It's a proper scandal as often these retirement companies part exchange on a person's property when they first move into a retirement flat. So not only are they getting a property at well below the market rate that they can sell and make a profit from but they also get monthly payments after the person has died because the family can't sell the retirement property immediately.

Sounds a real con

We are in a similar position only no money in the estate so having to pay ourselves. Managing agents also refusing permission to let, unhelpful b*stards. Unfortunately the retirement flat market is in the doldrums and it is difficult to sell even with massive price cut. For those saying just make it cheaper - that doesn't necessarily work at the moment. No answers but sympathy.

I can understand building upkeep but not daily food, cleaning and 24 hour support: etc: consumables when there is no consumer: ridiculous rip-off!
So sorry for your loss @LK2610

We deal with this all the time (work in probate). It usually comes out of the deceased’s estate if we have any funds in place. She will be entitled to be reimbursed for anything she pays out.

It is awful but thats what happens when you buy one of these retirement flats, which is why I will never do it. Rent one possibly but never buy.

Can they not rent it out?

The problem is that even though the costs are for things that are not being used, many of the things you list still need to be paid for e.g. kitchen staff, staff to respond in an emergency etc. We were in a similar situation and ended up pricing to sell even though it was much less then my gran paid for it. The way I looked at it was that it was the cost of my gran having day to day support to live independently until the end and peace of mind for us when we all lived too far away to offer that support.

Well bloody said!!!

The large print giveth and the small print taketh away! These are money making boxes for developers and there is so much been published about them recently I hope it results in huge changes to legislation. This is one article about how investors see them! https://www.leaseholdknowledge.com/investors-see-gold-in-retirement-housing-but-oldies-have-taken-a-look-and-remain-wary-but-the-brighter-developers-are-addressing-consumer-concerns/

What would they do if you just said there are no funds left in the estate? Surely you can’t be personally liable for a contract your relative signed up to.

How appalling.

I can see they'd need some money for services that require shared staff, such as 24 hour emergency support and cleaning. But to have to pay for water, elec, TV licence is just robbery. There ought to be an "estate rate" or something like that - as clearly the people in this type of apartment are old and likely will die in the not too distant future.

Sad world we live in these days.

I imagine you forfeit the lease.

They'd only end up having to charge more on the normal service charge to cover these situations.

What saving do you think there is on the supported living unit as a whole when one flat is empty? It's trivial.

It is a con and a scam yes as the elderly people who sign up don't really understand the costs. Should be illegal. Renting only which would probably cost exactly the same or less and be immediately available on death or move to a care home.

Unoccupied properties which have become vacant due to the death of the owner or tenant and where no one is liable for council tax except an executor or administrator, are exempt from council tax until probate is granted. Following a grant of probate (or the issue of letters of administration) a further period of exemption of up to 6 months is possible (Class F exemption), so long as the property remains unoccupied and has not been sold or transferred to someone else.
This is set out in the Council Tax (Exempt Dwellings) Order 1992 and is not at the discretion of the council.

Yes this is really rubbish. Although it happens with council tax too - you only get relief for six months and if the house takes longer to sell, tough. (Edited, just seen the post above mine and didn't know you only become liable from six months after probate was granted, I thought it was six months in full).

We also had the "event" fees when my father died, so two x 1% of the sale price went to the developer. Some people pay even more.

And you usually can't rent a flat out, either.

The sector is being examined for its unfair terms, but it might take a while to make any changes. Some changes have already been made, though.

It is a lesson in thinking very carefully indeed whether to buy a retirement flat, especially new. They are like cars and are often better value bought second hand!

Will they consider reducing the price to sell faster if they don't want to rent it out?

My father (and my aunt who also bought a retirement flat) did know, but it suited them at the time.

I do think people need to consider their offspring/possible heirs when buying retirement flats though. It isn't really fair to saddle your heirs with a millstone around their neck.

I imagine it also covers costs like cleaning and maintaining of communal areas. The costs are split among all residents so they'd need to up all other residents charges to stop the fees completely for your grandads flat so while it feels insensitive and I do appreciate why it comes across as cold and wasteful, its just an unpleasant part of living somewhere with communal spaces. I'm guessing there will also be a level of needing to maintain the property especially coming into winter to avoid taps freezing and damp etc you may need to use the heating a little to stop things going awry.

Could your mum approach local housing authorities and see if any of them would be interested in buying and having the flat as part of their housing stock? It may be that reducing the price for a quicker sale is a good option especially if things are going to get more expensive for her shortly.

I'm sorry for your loss op.

Yes that's the risk. At the moment we have it on at 2/3 market value, 3rd set of agents. Should just cover mortgage, exit fees for the freeholder 🙄agents fees and hopefully what we have spent paying it's outgoings. It's not even a bad little flat! Just no market for it (over 55s only with a lease full of fees).

Yes you are not liable personally. You need to get legal advice on this.

Although there is a risk of forfeiting the lease, I wonder if it's a fair term in such circumstances. I doubt a developer would want it tested!

Same issue with my Dad's flat, he died a year ago. We have now rented the flat out until the housing market improves

Not sure if it varies with different councils, but we didn't have to pay council tax at all from his death until 6 months after probate was granted. Now of course the tenant is paying the council tax although we pay the service charges - but at least we have the rent coming in now

@RethinkingLife Yes that's a good point. Local authorities could have some kind of private sector leasing scheme where they rent these properties and use them as accommodation for frail and elderly people who require support

But, I suppose in most cases, family of the previous owner want the flat sold so they can wind up the estate. Many beneficiaries probably don't want to be landlords