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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be disgusted at having to pay fees for a deceased family member

323 replies

LK2610 · 26/10/2023 10:38

I’d really appreciate any advice you can give. Our lovely grandad passed away 1 year ago. He lived in a block of ‘supported’ apartments for the elderly. Unfortunately my parents are struggling to sell his flat due to the slow housing market. It’s been empty for almost a year.

The thing that shocks me is that my mum is still having to pay a full monthly service charge for the apartment, even though it’s empty. It’s costing hundreds of pounds a month and soon my grandad’s estate will have run out of money. The building managers refuse to let my mum have a discount on the charges, even though half of the things my grandad obviously can’t use.

This charge includes things like water, electricity, TV licence, daily food in the restaurant, cleaning, 24/hour support, emergency call system - obviously he’s no longer using these things.

She’ll also soon have to pay full council tax on the flat because she can no longer benefit from the 1 person discount because my grandad is no longer here. This shocked me the most. It feels so insensitive, like a punishment for him not being here.

I’m sad that she’s being forced to pay all this money at such a difficult time (she’s still very upset) that she and my dad could have, as I’m sure my grandad would have wanted.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? I’ve suggested she gets legal advice but that’s more costly and she’s in her 70s so it’s quite stressful for her.

OP posts:
Cosyblankets · 28/10/2023 15:12

Testina · 28/10/2023 14:36

@BIossomtoes I promise I don’t work for McCarthy Stone 🤣 but I disagree that the 24 hour emergency call is the only difference with a regular leasehold property.

One big difference is the house manager. If you are 80 and your lightbulb goes, the longest you’ll wait to get it sorted is until they’re next on shift (Mon-Fri 9-5). Don’t under estimate how many older people don’t have friendly neighbours or nearby (or bothered) family. But just having someone who knows you, that you can speak to most days, is a big plus for some people. Part of their role is to develop the community. To me, that’s what you’re paying for - the corridor lighting is the extra!

The food isn’t free, but being able to just take a working lift downstairs and get a meal prepared for you - can be great. My 90yo MIL - in her own home - gets Wiltshire Farm Foods frozen means delivered. She’s really frail and my husband worries about her dropping hot food on herself getting it out of the oven - she’s really short, it’s in a tower unit.

Cleaning and laundry - yes, you pay extra if you want that. But, the ease of just saying to the house manager, “where do I sign?” You see all the time posts on here about how hard it is to get a cleaner, or “should I sack my cleaner because I pay for 2 hours and they’ve only done 1 but oh it’s so awkward and I can’t do confrontation.” And that’s before you get into the worry about finding them (and refinding when they quit or are bad) or security of people in your home.
You are paying for the ease of knowing you just have to ask (and pay) and it’s sorted. Don’t think she dusted properly? No awkward confrontation - tell the house manager.

For the social side… I think it’s like NCT! Nobody pays for NCT classes to learn about contractions. They join cos they’re hoping to make like minded social connections.

All of that is why people will pay £300K (and let’s face it: for some it’s so that those social connections are with “my kind of people” - who also have £300K) for these places.

If anyone’s child is surprised at ongoing fees after death, then frankly they should have been more interested in their parent when alive.

Reading around it today, it does sound like Covid had a big impact on sales so I’m sure that for some people it hasn’t paid off.

But we have an ageing population. I bet some people will make plenty of money from these, and don’t be complaining then.

I believe that nothing is a scam if a person has both the information and a choice.

Spot on

BIossomtoes · 28/10/2023 15:45

Thing is @Testina, you’re assuming everyone wants to live in a geriatric ghetto. I’m the target demographic for these places and I’d rather eat my own liver than live in one. They’d have to pay me.

Cosyblankets · 28/10/2023 15:53

BIossomtoes · 28/10/2023 15:45

Thing is @Testina, you’re assuming everyone wants to live in a geriatric ghetto. I’m the target demographic for these places and I’d rather eat my own liver than live in one. They’d have to pay me.

What are the alternatives for you? My friend's mum is buying one of these as she's isolated where she is and it is peace of mind for my friend who lives a couple of hours away

BIossomtoes · 28/10/2023 15:59

The alternative is to stay put and future proof. We like where we live.

RethinkingLife · 28/10/2023 16:00

I believe that nothing is a scam if a person has both the information and a choice.

People can have the information and a choice but neither the full information and its implications nor the capacity for understanding the full ramifications.

Scam can also be targeting sales at a demographic where capacity and some degree of cognitive impairment may be live considerations, especially in people who have steadfastly resisted relevant PoA.

gotomomo · 28/10/2023 16:15

@Testina

Completely agree. I have several people who come to where I work who live in their local development and they all love it. The extra services are comforting to have, and the building is beautifully appointed with very high end facilities. Now it's not my cup of tea, I'm just old enough to meet the criteria for that building alas, but I can understand the attraction

Cosyblankets · 28/10/2023 16:21

BIossomtoes · 28/10/2023 15:59

The alternative is to stay put and future proof. We like where we live.

And what about if the unthinkable happens and we becomes I?
I'm not saying it's the only option. But loneliness is a huge part of why my friend's mum is buying one

Laguiri · 28/10/2023 16:24

My mum’s living in one of these, and it’s been a life-saver for her. Previously, she was at the doctor’s 3 or 4 times a week, in hospital a few times a year broken bones, bad back, delirium), and falling over all the time. That all stopped the minute she went to live in a retirement flat. I guess all her health problems must have stemmed from depression/loneliness. BUT she hasn’t bought the flat: she’s renting it. Would renting your grandfather’s flat be an option for you?

Crikeyalmighty · 28/10/2023 16:34

@Testina I do agree- I would rather my FIL got one tommorrow for the company and the ease and wrote the money off in full than be lonely and struggling. I've told him this too.

BIossomtoes · 28/10/2023 16:44

Cosyblankets · 28/10/2023 16:21

And what about if the unthinkable happens and we becomes I?
I'm not saying it's the only option. But loneliness is a huge part of why my friend's mum is buying one

Show quote history

I like my own company and, even if I didn’t, I’d rather live with a friend whose circumstances were similar than surrounded by a bunch of people with whom I have nothing in common except age. I actually find it quite insulting that people seem to be regarded as some kind of homogeneous mass when they reach a certain age.

Seymour5 · 28/10/2023 16:59

Laguiri · 28/10/2023 16:24

My mum’s living in one of these, and it’s been a life-saver for her. Previously, she was at the doctor’s 3 or 4 times a week, in hospital a few times a year broken bones, bad back, delirium), and falling over all the time. That all stopped the minute she went to live in a retirement flat. I guess all her health problems must have stemmed from depression/loneliness. BUT she hasn’t bought the flat: she’s renting it. Would renting your grandfather’s flat be an option for you?

Renting, especially from a Registered Social Landlord, would be the ideal. I posted a link to Extra Care Housing earlier, because I think many older people don’t realise what’s available.

In a few years, I’ll be 80. If by then I’m on my own, I’ll be looking at that kind of housing. Apart from not having to heat and look after a three bedroomed house and garden, the security would give my family, who don’t live near me, peace of mind. The ideal could be to find one near one of my DC.

Testina · 28/10/2023 17:33

RethinkingLife · 28/10/2023 16:00

I believe that nothing is a scam if a person has both the information and a choice.

People can have the information and a choice but neither the full information and its implications nor the capacity for understanding the full ramifications.

Scam can also be targeting sales at a demographic where capacity and some degree of cognitive impairment may be live considerations, especially in people who have steadfastly resisted relevant PoA.

You misunderstand what I mean by a person having the information. I don’t mean that they have in their possession a leaflet, for example. I mean that they as an individual have the information. Meaning exactly what you say - that they understand it, and its ramifications.

People are talking like “old people” are getting scammed here. No. Plenty of “old people” are fully able to understand what they’re signing up for. That’s not a scam. They get the home and services they want, and are happy to pay for that - it’s only the relative getting less / no inheritance that is calling scam!

I don’t doubt they some sales people do prey on customers. But there’s also plenty of people making a valid choice for them.

BIossomtoes · 28/10/2023 17:47

it’s only the relative getting less / no inheritance that is calling scam!

It’s not. I think it’s a massive scam and I’m exactly the kind of person they’re trying to sell it to.

Cosyblankets · 28/10/2023 17:58

BIossomtoes · 28/10/2023 17:47

it’s only the relative getting less / no inheritance that is calling scam!

It’s not. I think it’s a massive scam and I’m exactly the kind of person they’re trying to sell it to.

But just because you don't want it doesn't make it a scam.
Is it any less of a scam if the elderly person has no one to leave anything to?

BIossomtoes · 28/10/2023 18:07

Cosyblankets · 28/10/2023 17:58

But just because you don't want it doesn't make it a scam.
Is it any less of a scam if the elderly person has no one to leave anything to?

Show quote history

Of course it’s not just because I don’t want it, don’t be ridiculous.

People are selling their biggest asset to buy these places which lose about 50% of their value on the second hand market. As soon as their owners lose their independence they have to move to a care home with half the money needed to pay the fees gone. The only winners here are the builders.

Cosyblankets · 28/10/2023 18:29

My aunty was in one of these many years ago when they were a fairly new concept. She loved it. Hers was social housing though she didn't buy it.

Needmoresleep · 29/10/2023 09:34

My mother's place had a 24 hour warden and a reception open from 6.00am to 10,.00pm.

She might have made a loss (though in fact made close to 50% profit) but for me it was worth every penny. The difference between dreading every phone call and having to organise her life from 100 miles away to having people on site who dealt with emergencies, was huge. It was still not easy to be told that my mother seemed to have a bad UTI and had been taken to hospital by ambulance, but so much better than having to sort things out long distance. I dread to think what those 8 years in a care home, or a full time live-in carer would have cost, but given my mother's lack of memory, this would have been the only alternative. She was happy in her very sheltered flat.

Ginmonkeyagain · 29/10/2023 10:35

Yep, my friend's parents moved in to a complex of flats run by a housing association. It is some sort of shared ownership arrangement where they bought a share with a lump sum and then pay rent as well.

The flat is suitable for people as they age and there is a common room, wardens, shared garden, a social committee.

It was a good decision as a couple of years aftet moving there, her dad was diagnosed with temrinal stomach cancer. It has been a godsend for her that they live somewhere like this as he became more frail.

WadiShab · 29/10/2023 11:51

When your mother runs out of estate funds your mother needs to write them and advise that the costs will be settled when the estate is in funds. She can do the same with the Council tax. There no obligation for an executor to pay estate expenses from their own funds although anything that is paid from her own pocket can be recovered from your grandfather's estate as executor expenses once funds are available from the sale. She will no doubt still get letters demanding payment but simply say these will be settled when funds are available/property is sold. This is the way to deal with this.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 29/10/2023 13:13

Cosyblankets · 28/10/2023 17:58

But just because you don't want it doesn't make it a scam.
Is it any less of a scam if the elderly person has no one to leave anything to?

Show quote history

It's a scam because the fees are unfair.

And it is also very difficult to offload these flats. Imagine being a distant relative of someone who died while living in one of these and having to deal with all the fallout. It's hard enough selling a freehold house, never mind a leasehold flat, and retirement flats are on another level.

crumblingschools · 29/10/2023 13:31

Any leasehold flat must be the same until you sell them

My DM lives in one, her development seem to sell quite well at the moment. Wouldn't buy a new one as they do seem to lose value quite quickly. We moved her into one after DF died. It is near us, she has made friends, takes part in some of the activities but also has the opportunity to have her own space and time in her flat. Was a life saver for all of us, especially during the pandemic. She lived 2 hours away before DF died, in a village with very few amenities and public transport wasn't great. She no longer drives and mobility isn't great. But she has maintained a lot of her independence, as shops are on doorstep, even if not doing a social activity she will inevitably bump into someone in the corridor or communal space so is not isolated, which she would have been if she stayed where she was or moved closer to us but not in one of these developments as she didn't know anyone where we live apart from us. Means that she can still live her life without being completely dependent on us, but has us on her doorstep if needed.

Cosyblankets · 29/10/2023 13:50

enchantedsquirrelwood · 29/10/2023 13:13

It's a scam because the fees are unfair.

And it is also very difficult to offload these flats. Imagine being a distant relative of someone who died while living in one of these and having to deal with all the fallout. It's hard enough selling a freehold house, never mind a leasehold flat, and retirement flats are on another level.

Show quote history

As far as i know you can refuse to be an executor and you can refuse an inheritance
I'm not sure how you provide a facility like this without the fees. The only alternative to not paying it until it's sold is for the other residents to pay it.

BIossomtoes · 29/10/2023 14:49

The only alternative to not paying it until it's sold is for the other residents to pay it.

There’s also the alternative that the company takes the hit until the property is sold. Which would be the ethical option.

Crikeyalmighty · 29/10/2023 18:29

If I can just say - if it's good quality one that offers services and help and enables late age independence- you would be paying more for regular care at home/live in help or care homes if you have assets/money in the bank- so unless you have a pretty healthy senior relative or an exceptionally skint one , then one way or another their assets will be paying - it's harsh I know, but that's the score as it stands - don't bank on inheritances!!

Fifteenth · 03/11/2023 17:51

BIossomtoes · 29/10/2023 14:49

The only alternative to not paying it until it's sold is for the other residents to pay it.

There’s also the alternative that the company takes the hit until the property is sold. Which would be the ethical option.

What assets would you expect a management company to have?

Where do you think they come from?

Service charges tend to go up and down depending on costs. If one flat owner doesn’t pay, the others must.

Why would anyone expect to stop paying the costs of their home just because it’s empty?