to be disgusted at having to pay fees for a deceased family member

[LK2610]

I’d really appreciate any advice you can give. Our lovely grandad passed away 1 year ago. He lived in a block of ‘supported’ apartments for the elderly. Unfortunately my parents are struggling to sell his flat due to the slow housing market. It’s been empty for almost a year.

The thing that shocks me is that my mum is still having to pay a full monthly service charge for the apartment, even though it’s empty. It’s costing hundreds of pounds a month and soon my grandad’s estate will have run out of money. The building managers refuse to let my mum have a discount on the charges, even though half of the things my grandad obviously can’t use.

This charge includes things like water, electricity, TV licence, daily food in the restaurant, cleaning, 24/hour support, emergency call system - obviously he’s no longer using these things.

She’ll also soon have to pay full council tax on the flat because she can no longer benefit from the 1 person discount because my grandad is no longer here. This shocked me the most. It feels so insensitive, like a punishment for him not being here.

I’m sad that she’s being forced to pay all this money at such a difficult time (she’s still very upset) that she and my dad could have, as I’m sure my grandad would have wanted.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? I’ve suggested she gets legal advice but that’s more costly and she’s in her 70s so it’s quite stressful for her.

The management companies make obscene profits, they could very easily afford to take the hit until the property is sold. The answer to your last question is because they’re dead, it’s not anyone’s home if it’s empty.

@BIossomtoes if a relative owned a house then died, do you think you can use electricity, water for free whilst probate and selling the property is being sorted because it’s no-one’s home?

Electricity etc fair enough. Food, not so much 🤷‍♀️

No. But presumably you’re not talking about a leasehold property and not much water or electricity is used in an empty property.

Are you seriously suggesting that someone else should pay the service charge and then the estate still benefit from the value of the lease?

Or are you talking lease forfeiture? That would be unfair in the other direction, unless clearly signalled in advance.

Yep we have a house that we have not been able to sell yet for 20 years. Had all the associated fees, up keep etc. 20 years of solicitors, councils etc and still nowhere near being able to sell it.

You can’t sell at any price?

If you have solicitors and the council involved, it sounds far more complex a scenario than just not finding a buyer.

Does the council have a legal interest in the asset because the owner went into a care home funded by them?

No we can't legally sell it yet something to do with one of the executors of the will.

Nope the owner died 20 years ago. We have been fighting to be able to sell it since.

Nothing but sympathy. There was a house that I liked that I've coveted for 20+ years. It's clearly unoccupied but, for tangled reasons, it seems impossible to sort out the right of sale. Unlike you, the house isn't being maintained. I can't bear to look at it now if I'm ever passing that way.

It's probably a good building plot now but I really liked the house.

There's a property near a waterway that I like paddling. Similar story. It's horrible to see it fall into decay and be vandalised.

For 20 years, that must be really frustrating! But it’s really not the same issue.
Nothing to do with the council either, unless as I said they’re claiming a legal interest due to care home fees.
Sounds like your 20 years of problems 🫣😳 could be the same with a regular property, not retirement, too.
I’m gobsmacked that this hasn’t been settled in 20 years though!!

We've had to spend a hell of a lot to upkeep the house - underpinning, new bathrooms, kitchen, plastering etc. We even have someone who wants to buy it - a family friend, but nothing!

This is a regular property not a retirement home. I am gobsmacked too but hopefully we've moved solicitors recently so that (fingers crossed) might change things if they fight a little more. I am a bit more ruthless than my mum and want to just hire someone to take legal action against everyone who has not acted in the last 20 years for compensation for all the outgoings.

I agree that there are well-known issues with this model. But I think that some things are being overstated as well, because

• a lot of people are struggling to sell any type of properties at anything like what they 'ought to be worth'
• sales are taking a long time to go through for many people at present and this has always been the case for some in lesser numbers - this is true even if there is no chain, the property is competitively priced and well maintained
• flats, and some houses, are always going to have some charges for communal areas and services - painting, gardening, lift servicing, rubbish removal, insurance, window cleaning, gutter clearing, fire door and cladding checks, pest control, and the list goes on
• owning a freehold property has its own costs and nasty surprises, sometimes very expensive ones
• council tax, unless the council agrees to waive it for longer, will be paid on any property of a deceased, as will maintenance, security, insurance etc. and at least these flats are less likely to suffer from certain things due to being in an overseen block

• this model of property ownership and care services might be right for the person investing in them and their desire to pass on wealth has to be balanced against their own needs while living.

No I don't work for a company that builds, runs or sells them

The advice about pricing it very competitively to get it sold ASAP to maximise what is left from the estate is good advice. Likewise seeing if an option to let it out can be negotiated even if not strictly allowed.

I’m seriously suggesting that the management company covers the fees until probate is granted and the property is sold and it’s then reimbursed from the estate before it’s disbursed to the heirs. Is that really so preposterous?

@BIossomtoes like a charge on the property?

This should be treated like any other bill and be addressed to the estate of the person who has died.
Relatives should not be paying out of their own pocket

@BIossomtoes I’m seriously suggesting that the management company covers the fees until probate is granted and the property is sold and it’s then reimbursed from the estate before it’s disbursed to the heirs. Is that really so preposterous?

It sounds fair, but the devil is in the detail. What if the person inheriting decides they want to wait for a rise in property values? What if they put in on the market at an unrealistic price? What if it has been left to a large charity and they leave it empty for years because a fast sale isn’t a priority (2 houses in my village like that currently)
What if it’s left to 2 siblings with one pissing the other for fun or just different aims?

All of this happens.

See the poster above who’s been involved in family pissing about not sorting about a property for 20 years?

How long in your rule are you going to give them?

Surely the longer the better for the management company? It will eventually get the entire estate if the delay goes on long enough.

Often freeholders don't have big pots of money from elsewhere that they can use, usually all the money they can legally spend is what they can collect from lessees.

So non payers are expecting other lessees to subsidise them.

Our building is not a retirement property, just a normal block of flats, but we get that sometimes with probate properties - people say can't the freeholder pay until sale - we can't as the "freeholder" is just a company owned by leaseholders. The only money we have is what lessees pay in service charge.

@ThePeachIsSoUnusual I get what you are saying. Thing is too that people selling often don't take into account- we've got a few here in Bath in a nice block from the 90s in a good and central part of town. The flats that have had things done to them over the years and updated do sell (I've been checking) the ones in the block that don't sell are often asking roughly the same amount of money as the lovely modern fresh ones for something that looks like it hadn't been touched since 1989 and it would struggle to sell if it was a retirement apartment or not. A lot of over 60s who in theory might be interested have much higher standards of what they are looking for and so yes, they do end up paying for the nice, new, modern overpriced units that look 'of today' from McCarthy and stone and platinum skys and a lick of paint and a new carpet still doesn't cut the mustard- many of these places need that plus new kitchens and bathrooms fit for todays expectations etc- just because you are over 60 doesn't suddenly mean you have no taste or standards.