to be disgusted at having to pay fees for a deceased family member

[LK2610]

I’d really appreciate any advice you can give. Our lovely grandad passed away 1 year ago. He lived in a block of ‘supported’ apartments for the elderly. Unfortunately my parents are struggling to sell his flat due to the slow housing market. It’s been empty for almost a year.

The thing that shocks me is that my mum is still having to pay a full monthly service charge for the apartment, even though it’s empty. It’s costing hundreds of pounds a month and soon my grandad’s estate will have run out of money. The building managers refuse to let my mum have a discount on the charges, even though half of the things my grandad obviously can’t use.

This charge includes things like water, electricity, TV licence, daily food in the restaurant, cleaning, 24/hour support, emergency call system - obviously he’s no longer using these things.

She’ll also soon have to pay full council tax on the flat because she can no longer benefit from the 1 person discount because my grandad is no longer here. This shocked me the most. It feels so insensitive, like a punishment for him not being here.

I’m sad that she’s being forced to pay all this money at such a difficult time (she’s still very upset) that she and my dad could have, as I’m sure my grandad would have wanted.

Has anyone else been in a similar situation? I’ve suggested she gets legal advice but that’s more costly and she’s in her 70s so it’s quite stressful for her.

I had a similar issue although nowhere near as bad with my dad’s park home. He hadn’t lived in it for a year as he had to go into care when my mum died. I still had to pay water/sewerage charges. I spoke to the site owner who said the charges are divided between the units regardless of whether they are empty or not! I can’t think of many other instances where you have to pay for something you haven’t used or had but obviously this is one of them!
I think it’s totally out of order but unfortunately not illegal.

Doesn't "rip off" the person living there though does it? Just means there's less inheritance left. Which is of course the most important consideration for an elderly person making decisions about their own lives 😒

Don't you usually buy & prepare your own food in these places?

Food in the restaurant? I know where I’d be going for my meals. I’d also be tempted to leave all of the lights on and the heating turned on.

You shouldn't be paying council tax , you are entitled to a full exemption from the date of death if the property has remained empty.

We had to pay the service charge on her flat like this when mum needed to go into a care home, so tried to sell it asap. Still took about a year. But on giving proof of her new address we didn't need to pay the council tax. (london borough)

It does feel rather unfair. They should be able to give a discount on some of the more controllable costs like food at least. Are you sure you need to pay council tax. We had an exemption until 6 months after probate was granted when my father died.

Reading this thread there's an awful lot of "we" had to pay this or "I" had to pay that.
Surely the estate is paying?
Sorry if I'm missing something. My dad moved into a leasehold flat with a communal charge. Not a retirement place just a converted building. All the service charge bills etc were addressed to "the estate of" when he died.

How is this different? What am I missing?

unfortunately legal advice isn’t going to help you.

I work for a large supported living housing company and this is both common and scandalous.

The best way we have gotten these sold in the past for vendors is to drop the price as low as you can go and maybe offer an incentive I.E no stamp duty (you will foot the bill for this out any ‘profit’).

how is the condition of the flat? High standard photos (and potentially videos) can make all the difference. As can getting a quick spruce up of the paint work and carpets etc.

it’s all costs unfortunately, but those are things that can help.

If advertised on Rightmove, you could ask them to list as a premium listing? I believe this is a one off cost of £75-100.

a terrible situation to be in, I really feel for you.

(apologies for awful grammar - I’m writing this with a toddler climbing all over me but I felt called to respond)

You’re not missing a thing. A lot of elderly people have been seduced by these schemes without understanding the long term financial implications. Thankfully it’s much better known now that buying them is like setting fire to £50 notes which is why they’re so hard to sell. I wouldn’t accept one as a present. They’re the modern white elephant.

So what I'm missing is how hard they are to sell really.
What's the alternative to this for elderly people on their own who don't necessarily need or want a care home? Stay in their old home and be lonely?
I'm not sure what the answer is.

My DM looked at apartments like this and was horrified by the fees and the obligation to keep paying these after death. I felt quite cross about it as a business model, as it leaves people so exposed. I think all you can do is drop the price enough to get a quick sale to cut your losses.

Maybe the answer can be better than bleeding them dry in geriatric ghettos. Maybe people’s families could help them not be lonely instead of consigning them to death’s waiting room and then complaining about the impact on their inheritance.

Fully agree on the inheritance part.
But there are plenty of people out there without much family. Or whose family live in another area and the parent won't move etc. Lots of scenarios. Whichever way we look at it the elderly do need support. It's very wrong to make huge profits out of this but these things do cost money so if anyone has any suggestions I'm all ears

I heard this second-hand, so can't vouch for the accuracy, but I heard recently that the mother of someone I know who had one of these flats had to go into a care home, because her care needs were greater than could be delivered by visiting carers.

The flat was put on the market so it could be sold to cover the care home fees, but in the interim social services agreed to cover the care home costs until the property was sold.

It took nearly two years to sell, despite several reductions in price, and the old lady died before the sale completed. By the time the service charges and care home fees were paid off, there was hardly anything left in the estate.

I think it's more likely that a charge was put on the house rather than SS agreed to cover the costs until its sold

It’s very common for local authorities to cover care home costs until a property is sold. It’s one of the reasons they’ve become adept at tracking down assets that have been given away.

I think it is what it is unfortunately so as other have suggested, probably worth reducing the price to try and sell it quickly. One thing I would say though is where is your mum paying the monthly fees from in the meantime? - presumably out of his bank account rather than her own? - as it's his estate which is liable and if that money runs out in the meantime I guess they can't claim any payments from that point (but presumably can recoup from the asset of the flat itself once it sells) - ie just wanted to be clear that, assuming she will inherit from his estate then the fees will obviously eat into the inheritance, BUT she shouldn't be paying them out of her own money, if that makes sense.

It took nearly two years to sell, despite several reductions in price, and the old lady died before the sale completed. By the time the service charges and care home fees were paid off, there was hardly anything left in the estate.

That's not really a surprise though as care home fees can be upward of £50,000 a year.

I’m interested in why they are so hard to sell.

If people fall for the “white elephant” when it’s £300K new, why aren’t they easily sellable at a corrected price of (say) £150K?

I likened them in an earlier post to brand new cars - you have to accept that you lose money as you drive it off the forecourt.

But they’re still a good premise, as the new sales show. If McCarthy Stone can still be building and selling at a high price, why can’t individuals shift them at a lower market determined price second hand?

Is all this just because greedy inheritors are pissed off because they are used to thinking that property increases in value?

If people fall for the “white elephant” when it’s £300K new, why aren’t they easily sellable at a corrected price of (say) £150K?

Because of the service charges. When you buy one of these properties you’re basically signing a blank cheque and the meter keeps running after you’re dead. Early purchasers and their heirs discovered this the hard way, now we’re learning from their mistake.

Why difficult to sell ?

The flats that I have investigated for a relative, you have to be over a certain age to live there. Therefore the buying market is reduced to a small audience

The high cost of the service charges also put buyers off

But people are still buying them new. They’re going up everywhere.

So that’s what I curious about.
If there’s still a market for them new, isn’t there a market for them second hand - at the right price?

Or are you saying that the newest ones have better T&C so it’s like a “first generation” that have the resale problem?

The meter can only keep running until the dead person’s money is gone. So coming back to the second hand car analogy… I have bought cars knowing that I’d keep them until all I got was scrap. But that suited my circumstances. Is there a price at which these properties do make sense for some people’s needs? Where you know you’re effectively buying a short lease hold, but the facilities are right for you?

I don’t know anyone that had bought one, but friend’s relatives have - and love them, the community element, no maintenance worries, security (door knocking scam tradesmen an issue here)…

I’m interested to understand whether there is no market at all, or whether the people inheriting are just unrealistic about the value?

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