Feeling like it's impossible to work as much as my company needs me to

[careerwam]

I've got two children, 1 and 3. I work full time and I'm pretty ambitious but I just can't seem to put extra hours in.

I'm a single parent.

We had a team call with one of our VPs this morning who told us that everyone needs to dig deep if they want to really excel. This means doing extra trainings and work after hours.

I just can't do anything after hours. When I finish work, I get my kids and give them dinner and get them ready for bed. They don't sleep until 8 unfortunately. I then usually fall asleep with them or shortly after, as they are both bad sleepers and keep me up at night.

Then it's up again the next morning and getting them ready for nursery and that's all the time I have at the moment. I don't know how I can give any more, but I know I need to if I want to get to where I want to be.

I know other mums can do it, but I'm just so tired.

Any advice ?

I don’t know how you manage to do all of that @careerwam ! I really don’t think you’ll find many mums who do more especially with children that age, unless they have an absolutely amazing support network/lots of money for help. You aren’t failing - they are asking too much. To consistently need to work outside your hours isn’t on unless they are paying you extremely well.

For context, I’m a single mum of a 3 year old, I work 3.5 days on average and I’m absolutely exhausted! I can only advise you consider whether work life balance might be more important than this job and whether there is something else you could do which could provide that. I think sometimes people forget that ambition can also mean to carve out a life that works for you, rather than progression up the ladder. I’ve been very successful in my time but I’ve had to take a step back which is hard but the reality is women can’t have it all - at least not all at once - there’s always a trade off (this applies to men too, there’s just less expectations of their parenting).

Whatever you decide, know that this is not your failure - you sound like you are doing amazingly, hats off to you.

Sorry your company sounds like a totally awful place to work.

Hubby and I both earn over 100k and work in what is normally looked at as a very ‘full on industry’ and yet both of us would absolutely balk at our CEOs making comments about relinquishing our personal time to do extra training or work! That is a complete p*ss take! We have one toddler and another on the way - our evenings are for childcare and relaxing! The Netflix comment has really blown my mind!

I am genuinely gob smacked at the audacity.

I would be speaking to HR and making comments about being victimised and discriminated against for being a woman/single mother as the impression you are getting is that it is only the people who are able to get ahead in your company are the ‘single males’ who have no outside responsibilities. Or are they expecting you to make yourself sick with stress and exhaustion pulling all these extra hours to get ahead? I would be getting them to really sh*t themselves about a potential discrimination law suit.

And to the people saying ‘this is just how the world works’ and ‘working like this is the only way to get ahead’ … it’s not the bloody 1980s! Any decent company would never say this to their employees - just the ones who have a terrible work culture and want to try their luck! And tbh it just makes me think your an idiot if you truly think the only way to get ahead is to work all the hours in the hopes that some benevolent boss will deam you worthy of a promotion/pay rise!

Level of output ≠ level of value added!

Decent employers know that treating their staff like this only means that the ones that are any good will just leave for greener pastures!

My DH and I are both very senior in our careers and have NEVER worked like this ever!

If I was you OP I would be updating my CV, getting it on reed and Linked In, applying for jobs, speaking to recruiters and get yourself a nice pay rise/ promotion in a new role at a new company!

Remember if you died tomorrow they would replace you in a heart beat! Do not sacrifice your well-being for a company that will get rid of you at the drop of a hat if the revenue goes down.

I was expected to do similar. Unpaid. No thanks either. And minimum wage. I was lucky enough that I was able to quit.

100k+ is not a very large salary in certain industries and areas.

If you work in tech, IT or Financial Services or you live in the south (especially the Home Counties) then £100k is actually a pretty normal salary for someone who is mid level in their career.

‘say you refuse to work the odd evening and see how long you stay employed’

This is an INCREDIBLY old fashioned way to look at work life… it’s not the 1970s where we all stay at the same company we started at at 18.

TBH it’s a job seekers market (if you’re any good that is!) and anyone half decent at their job will up sticks and go to a new company if their current one isn’t meeting their needs.

You absolutely do not need to be beholden to one company out of fear of not getting another job - that’s just what the sh*tty companies want you to feel so they can keep you trapped!

I think in the past 6 years I’ve changed jobs 3 times for career progression or because my employer wasn’t willing to offer me the salary I wanted and never had any issues finding a new job. The internet exists! Recruiters exist and do all the hard work for you!

There are 1000s of jobs out there… don’t be scared into staying trapped in a sh*tty.

With 2 very young children and being a single mother I’d say what you are doing already is verging on witch craft. Look up ‘greedy jobs’ it appears you have two and that will be very hard to manage.

@Passepartoute

dont be ridiculous, she can’t afford full time nanny on 100k. And employers if they are men with children in London would know that. Full time doesn’t mean nanny is covering evenings too, btw

My rule is no pay, no stay. If I’m available to do overtime after my contracted hours then I’ll do it, if they pay me. I don’t work for free, my time is valuable. If they want it they buy it.
If you work for nothing, they will continue to ask for more and more.

What are non greedy jobs which pay high salaries?

this ^^
Tell your employers you are happy to do the extra training but it needs to be in your contracted hours as you have parental responsibilities in the hours after work. (and also a life!)

@pandarific i love what I do and I’m very good at it. What I do enables the opportunity for those buying a home, especially for low income groups in the U.S.

Yes I make money but I’m delivering something which I fully believe in. It’s Wall Street. I’m miles away from home and divorced. The courts won’t let me move back to London so I have flexed my relationships to the max.

@LimePi To be efficient I only work on things which directly benefit me and my career.

I spent time at community college learning to code. I used those skills to automate my job as a controller. I then used those skills to complete data analysis for a trading desk. I made some cool slides (LinkedIn learning for the win) and it got everyone’s attention. I’m nimble and I’m humble at work. You don’t need fancy stuff all the time. I did put the money into a course at Harvard and it did wonders for my confidence. It gave me access to an alumni group which is global. I get nearly all my training through the group and I’ve met some very interesting people who are like minded. No business benefit yet but I didn’t do it for that reason.

For the years my children were young I slept 3 hours a night. I trained myself how to cope with that amount of sleep. Exercise is vital. I run 30min a day no matter what. I drink a 6 pack of water which is about 3L. I have a 2 drink max (vodka soda with lime as its low sugar) and I leave all work events at 9pm. Seriously. Nothing good happens after 9pm and it’s best to avoid the people who are out after 9pm because they can’t perform to a top level consistently.

In terms of being efficient and effective I utilize AI. ChatGDP is great for making admin easy. Meal plans, running routes, summer camp plans for the children, clothing lists etc.

At work, I use it for getting things done and I pay the $20/month myself. Needed a press release yesterday. ChatGDP got a draft done in minutes. I edited the draft and job done. Took me an hour. I send it out to leadership end of day which was 12 hours ahead of schedule.

Play the game. Don’t let the game play you. I have an au pair and I have her goals. She gets paid more than the minimum. She arrived and I’ve asked her goals. Why? So I know what motivates her. I then give her those things as she performs. Money motivates. I got my boss to the point where he asked me if I was being paid enough. My answer, ‘Mr Boss, I’m never going to tell you I’m being paid enough.’

@Redpaisley anything that requires a technical skill set especially involving data analysis and coding.

Things like:

• data engineer
• data scientist
• business analyst

are all good money makers without being ‘greedy jobs’.

Competition for competent people with these skills sets is high and employers are willing to pay big bucks for these kind of skills, especially in financial services (hedge funds, asset managers etc.) and candidates can pretty much have their pick of the companies they work for. Also pretty standard in these types of job roles to work from home at least 80% of the time.

Teach yourself SQL, python, Power Bi etc. The names of these things makes them sound more complicated than they actually are - trust me!

Get certified as a Microsoft something or other i.e. a Power Bi consultant or data engineer to give yourself some legitimacy if you don’t have experience.

My job is not that hard or demanding, it’s just that I can do something that a lot of people think looks very fancy/specialist and really if you have a logical brain most people could do it if they applied themselves/took the time to learn.

@Aintnosupermum

thanks for answering! Great insight!

im very well paid individual contributor in big tech but struggling to move to the next level, and I had one DD while there and on mat leave for another, so strategising how to do it all when I’m back AND progress to the next level. Need to be super efficient but I’m also ADHD leaning so it’s a constant struggle and so I’m on the lookout for techniques on how to make it.

re chat GPT: are you allowed to use it at work? You’d have to put confidential information there to write a press release? Id love to use it at work but given that I’m in legal department I know I can’t. Maybe not yet. Will put it to good use at home though

@LimePi It’s web based and I don’t use proprietary data. A trade flow is pretty standard and I don’t use vendor names. I get a slide back I then edit outside of Chat GDP.

big tech is a nightmare. I was the number cruncher behind a fintech group of a Wall Street broker dealer. I was the only woman in that group. In the company I was their first working mother.

Tech is very similar to Wall Street investment banking. I prefer trading side because the numbers are your data to back up your performance. Go speak to your VP and show you have pair of balls. Deliver and they do reward.

Tech is in the pits right now so the VP warning is very fair and he is doing you a favour. Take a look at Wall Street firms. Bank of America, JPM and Morgan Stanley are always looking to hire for their technology groups. Build your network so they approach you. Look for events key people are attending. It’s all on LinkedIn when you follow the leaders of the groups you want to join.

I work for a tech start up actually, so longer hours are a thing. I don't mind being ' on call ' but to do trainings late at night is hard for me. I'm also adhd leaning.

In any case, I will definitely not say a word ( was never planning to ) and just become more of an expert in my own time and my own way. I think really what the VP was saying is that we all need to show initiative to become subject matter experts if we want to do well. That always involves a certain amount of self study / self training an interest. I'll try and be super visible about the things I do.

I did this for years. Additional hours, additional responsibility and it got me nowhere!

I constantly see people who do very little get promoted.

By doing those extra hours and responsibilities I devalued myself. If he wants more hours he pays more and if you can do it you do it. If not you don't.

If there is too much work it's a management problem.

Unfortunately this is corporate life. Which unfortunately is geared versus single people or people whose partners are stay at home. 90% of men would not do a career without SAHM and they skew the field for all working parents either single or with working partners.
does your company apply an up our our policy? If yes you need to change job. If they allow you to stay at your level if you do not put overtime this could be a compromise till the kids are small. They will sleep and you will be able to work after 8pm for a few hours and in secondary school you will have even more time as no pick up/drop off and they do their own breakfast.
if you really want a career and are ambitious, you need to pay for help. Like an after school mother help so you can work a bit more. It depends if your salary allows it and if any future promotion will make it worth it. This is from a financial point of view, but you might not sacrifice time with them, hence this might not be an option for you even if you could afford it.

Why are you even asking this? Work out of hours is unpaid. Write an email what the change in your compensation package is to take on this additional workload. If it’s nothing then you contact HR. Don’t be a mug and expect sympathy of other people. Use your brain.

You're nice aren't you. How about you grow up

You can only do what there are enough hours in the day to do. I work in an industry where long hours are expected certainly if you want to progress. I decided whilst my kids were young (and also terrible sleepers) it was enough for me to be holding onto my career and keep it moving in a forward resembling direction.
Now they are older (school age) and I am less tired I have been able to focus more on moving my career forward and put in extra hours if needed once they sleep. Really you likely have a very long career ahead of you so my advice would be to try to not worry if your career stalls for a few years as there is plenty of time in the future to focus on that.

This is exactly what we are expected to do in the private school I work in. With a rubbish salary. Find something else OP- I know it’s easier said than done. But the more you do, the higher they’ll set the bar.
Someone, somewhere is earning a fortune off your back.

How hopelessly naive

What type of studies are you doing? Sounds like maybe you need to do this during working hours or maybe hire a babysitter over the weekend in the morning as this sounds like when you are more focused.
Is the studies not very interesting and why do you need to do it? Is it essential for your current role and it would impact your work output if you don’t do the training?
Im on over 100k a year and work from home. There’s no expectation for me to work outside of my contracted hours. Do you work for a small company that’s struggling financially?
Studying is tough when you have so many priorities. I’ve got two kids who are 3 and 5 years old and I do occasionally study in the evening but nothing too taxing. I used to study an MBA when I only had 1 kid. It takes a huge amount of determination to do this and it’s only worth it if you can see the benefit of doing the studying.

Ask for meeting minutes so have the comments documented.
You don’t need to make a point on what was said but you may need to think of the correct response if you’re challenged on why you’re not putting in the ‘extra’.
If you can do the training within your working days and hours by micro managing your time, great. If you can’t, even without children, you shouldn’t be expected to do this out of hours. It’s unreasonable and quite frankly, rude of any manager to request. People have lives out of work.
I can see you’re on a good wage, but again that’s irrelevant. You’re paid for your time, experience and ability to do the job. If more is expected of you, then your time costs money. If it’s not expected, then don’t feel the pressure.
Being a working parent is tough but they’re only little for a short time. They come first for now and your manager can suck it up.

The messages from your VP are antiquated, toxic and potentially dangerous.

work smart, work effectively, work creatively and resourcefully, having amazing ideas and the courage, conviction , passion to see them through. Work with love, work with interest and curiosity. But don’t just slog till you’re at burnout and blurry headed. That’s doing nobody any favours.

i would see the messages from the VP as a massive red flag for the kind of culture that’s being cultivated.