Page 7 | To think it is dangerous to buy/or support buying alcohol for under 16s

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 2023-10-19T15:08:09+00:00

“It is illegal to buy alcohol for someone under 18 in a licensed premises, the only exception is for 16 or 17 year-olds who are allowed to drink beer, wine or cider with food if with an adult (but they may not buy the alcohol themselves).” However, I hear of more and more ‘adults’ justifying buying alcohol for children. It makes me question how safe children are?. Particularly when we find ourselves in a largely split parent/coparenting demographic in the UK. It makes enforcing parental boundaries and measures to keep our children safe, all the more difficult.

Original poster

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 22/10/2023 23:38

SharonEllis · Today 23:26

This thread is completely impossible to follow now.

Sorry @SharonEllis I was trying to keep up/reply to some reply’s after a few days away from the forum. Apologies that you are finding it impossible to follow.

OP posts:

CherryMyBrandy · 23/10/2023 00:00

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/10/2023 16:22

I'm going to go against the grain here: I don't think its great to normalise alcohol around kids.

My parents (dad functional alcoholic, mum not but enabled him) both subscribed to the bullshit theory that "continental-style" drinking (wine with meals etc) was fine and it was better to introduce children to drinking moderately at home than not drink and have them go off and drink unsupervised. I understand the theory but in practice more often than not it was just a fig leaf to allow the parents to get slaughtered in front of their children but feel OK about it because it was in the guise of "being like the French".

I grew up to loathe being around my dad when he was drinking wine and I dreaded him offering it to me. I'd far rather they just didn't drink at home, or drank very modestly.

Teens do drink and it probably is better to have some overview as to what they are drinking and with whom but I think quite a lot of this is just parents allowing themselves to drink in front of kids in a guilt-free way. Far healthier for kids to get used to alcohol not being involved in every get together and served with every meal than to introduce it all the time and kid yourself its healthier just because its done with parents.

You are conflating "normalising alcohol" with "being an alcoholic". They are two completely different things. Drinking in a normal and sociable way around children is fine. It models responsible drinking and behaviour. What happened to you was calling something one thing, in an attempt to cover up alcoholism and all that comes with that.

Original poster

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 23/10/2023 00:01

SharonEllis · 20/10/2023 15:31

Nobody needs to drink. People like to drink. A gorgeous wine, or real ale, or gin is a delicious and enjoyable thing. You lot really are weird. People have put so much effort into creating delicious alcoholic drinks for centuries - the puritanical attitudes on here are really out of step with a long cultural tradition. Nobody has to drink it - its up to you. Drinking to self medicate is an entirely different thing and I would advise against it & certainly would not bring my children up to think it's wise. If you need medication, see a doctor.

@SharonEllis this reply makes me wonder what your own relationship is with alcohol? Alcohol is a drug, nothing more, nothing less. It alters our brain chemistry and physical responses like any other drug. It is effectively a poison to our human beings, no matter how we dress it up.

“Nobody has to drink it - it’s up to you.” I beg to differ. Alcoholism is a worrying and complex disease. Yes, that’s right, ‘disease’… not “choice” it starts somewhere, but as it is so complex, it makes sense to avoid any ‘triggers’ one major one being… caregivers supporting and facilitating drinking at a young age. This isn’t exclusive to the UK. ‘Continental drinking’ now agrees with the science and those in the know would also agree that we should all be on the same page. It will take a severe stance and properly enforced legislation and prosecutions to truly protect children. This thread has demonstrated how dangerously entrenched we are in the drinking laws of the past… “you can give your five year old alcohol” pfft. Given the scientific research into the damage underage drinking does to a child’s physical and mental health and current and future life chances, this should be a priority in the political agenda.

OP posts:

Flamingogirl08 · 23/10/2023 00:05

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 23/10/2023 00:01

SharonEllis · 20/10/2023 15:31

Nobody needs to drink. People like to drink. A gorgeous wine, or real ale, or gin is a delicious and enjoyable thing. You lot really are weird. People have put so much effort into creating delicious alcoholic drinks for centuries - the puritanical attitudes on here are really out of step with a long cultural tradition. Nobody has to drink it - its up to you. Drinking to self medicate is an entirely different thing and I would advise against it & certainly would not bring my children up to think it's wise. If you need medication, see a doctor.

@SharonEllis this reply makes me wonder what your own relationship is with alcohol? Alcohol is a drug, nothing more, nothing less. It alters our brain chemistry and physical responses like any other drug. It is effectively a poison to our human beings, no matter how we dress it up.

“Nobody has to drink it - it’s up to you.” I beg to differ. Alcoholism is a worrying and complex disease. Yes, that’s right, ‘disease’… not “choice” it starts somewhere, but as it is so complex, it makes sense to avoid any ‘triggers’ one major one being… caregivers supporting and facilitating drinking at a young age. This isn’t exclusive to the UK. ‘Continental drinking’ now agrees with the science and those in the know would also agree that we should all be on the same page. It will take a severe stance and properly enforced legislation and prosecutions to truly protect children. This thread has demonstrated how dangerously entrenched we are in the drinking laws of the past… “you can give your five year old alcohol” pfft. Given the scientific research into the damage underage drinking does to a child’s physical and mental health and current and future life chances, this should be a priority in the political agenda.

Now you're just coming across as puritanical and against alcohol completely. Which is fine if that's your opinion but it wasn't what your OP was about.

Did you mention underage drinking in your OP as a way to start a debate about alcohol use in general? Furthermore you're obviously set in your opinion so clearly not an AIBU situation.

TooOldForThisNonsense · 23/10/2023 00:08

On the other hand…

I didn’t drink underage
my parents never bought me alcohol or encouraged/enabled me to drink it
didn’t even drink that much as a student

Still ended up with alcohol use disorder

Even when parents do everything right it can still go wrong 😑

Original poster

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 23/10/2023 00:10

“Now you're just coming across as puritanical and against alcohol completely. Which is fine if that's your opinion but it wasn't what your OP was about.

Did you mention underage drinking in your OP as a way to start a debate about alcohol use in general? Furthermore you're obviously set in your opinion so clearly not an AIBU situation.”

nope, it’s just how the thread has evolved. My point is still about underage drinking and those normalising/supplying underage drinkers. Making it hugely difficult for parents who are trying to say “no” based on science and ‘new thinking’

OP posts:

StripedElephant · 23/10/2023 00:20

I think people are finding it difficult to follow because you appear to be copying and pasting the comment you are replying to. It’s very hard to tell which text is the original comment and which is your response.

Original poster

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 23/10/2023 00:37

StripedElephant · Today 00:20

I think people are finding it difficult to follow because you appear to be copying and pasting the comment you are replying to. It’s very hard to tell which text is the original comment and which is your response.

apologies, I thought that made it easier, to copy and paste what I’m actually replying to? Or not?

OP posts:

TooOldForThisNonsense · 23/10/2023 00:39

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 23/10/2023 00:37

StripedElephant · Today 00:20

I think people are finding it difficult to follow because you appear to be copying and pasting the comment you are replying to. It’s very hard to tell which text is the original comment and which is your response.

apologies, I thought that made it easier, to copy and paste what I’m actually replying to? Or not?

Better to quote (like this)

SharonEllis · 23/10/2023 06:09

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 23/10/2023 00:01

SharonEllis · 20/10/2023 15:31

Nobody needs to drink. People like to drink. A gorgeous wine, or real ale, or gin is a delicious and enjoyable thing. You lot really are weird. People have put so much effort into creating delicious alcoholic drinks for centuries - the puritanical attitudes on here are really out of step with a long cultural tradition. Nobody has to drink it - its up to you. Drinking to self medicate is an entirely different thing and I would advise against it & certainly would not bring my children up to think it's wise. If you need medication, see a doctor.

@SharonEllis this reply makes me wonder what your own relationship is with alcohol? Alcohol is a drug, nothing more, nothing less. It alters our brain chemistry and physical responses like any other drug. It is effectively a poison to our human beings, no matter how we dress it up.

“Nobody has to drink it - it’s up to you.” I beg to differ. Alcoholism is a worrying and complex disease. Yes, that’s right, ‘disease’… not “choice” it starts somewhere, but as it is so complex, it makes sense to avoid any ‘triggers’ one major one being… caregivers supporting and facilitating drinking at a young age. This isn’t exclusive to the UK. ‘Continental drinking’ now agrees with the science and those in the know would also agree that we should all be on the same page. It will take a severe stance and properly enforced legislation and prosecutions to truly protect children. This thread has demonstrated how dangerously entrenched we are in the drinking laws of the past… “you can give your five year old alcohol” pfft. Given the scientific research into the damage underage drinking does to a child’s physical and mental health and current and future life chances, this should be a priority in the political agenda.

I have explained my relationship with alcohol - its all there. I have said don't drink to self medicate - that leads to alcoholism. The whole point of my moderate approach to alcohol is to avoid dependence. That is how I was brought up. I haven't had a drink for several weeks. I go through phases of drinking a bottle of wine across a week - you do the maths - hardly excessive. Occasional gin & tonic. Maybe a whole 2 glasses of wine or a whole 2 × half pints of beer if I have dinner out or at home with friends maybe once a month. I never suggested giving a five year old alcohol. My life chances have in no way been affected in any negative way by my parents giving me heavily diluted alcohol as a child & modelling extremely moderate drinking. Being so sanctimonious towards us won't save a single child from the negative effects of living with alcoholism or excessive binge drinking which plague our society.

SharonEllis · 23/10/2023 06:12

CherryMyBrandy · 23/10/2023 00:00

You are conflating "normalising alcohol" with "being an alcoholic". They are two completely different things. Drinking in a normal and sociable way around children is fine. It models responsible drinking and behaviour. What happened to you was calling something one thing, in an attempt to cover up alcoholism and all that comes with that.

Show quote history

Exactly this!

Thepeopleversuswork · 23/10/2023 08:36

@CherryMyBrandy

You are conflating "normalising alcohol" with "being an alcoholic". They are two completely different things. Drinking in a normal and sociable way around children is fine. It models responsible drinking and behaviour. What happened to you was calling something one thing, in an attempt to cover up alcoholism and all that comes with that.

Of course not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic: but this position is problematic for a few reasons:

There isn't a hard dividing line between "alcoholics" and "normal drinkers". Alcoholism is a progressive disease which usually involves some underlying psychological underpinning but "normal" drinking which becomes less normal is usually the trigger point. Alcoholics don't start as fully-formed alcoholics. They are people who use alcohol as a crutch and for whom the relationship progressively becomes problematic. You say drinking in a "normal and sociable" way around children is fine and it is fine -- up to a point. But anything that signals to children that alcohol is a normal copying mechanism or a part of day to day life has the potential to lead to a problematic relationship.
It's possible to drink in an unhealthy way even if you stop short of being alcohol dependent. Masses of people who are not alcohol dependent still damage their internal organs and shorten their lives by drinking more than is healthy for them.

I'm not suggesting people need to live an alcohol-free and puritanical life. But I do think the idea that drinking around children and "modelling" frequent but non-alcoholic drinking with them sets a good example is misguided.

It's not wrong to allow your children to see you drinking at times but why wouldn't it be better to minimise the amount of time they see you drinking? I can't see the upside to making alcohol a central part of family life.