To think it is dangerous to buy/or support buying alcohol for under 16s

[Theemeperorsnewclothes]

“It is illegal to buy alcohol for someone under 18 in a licensed premises, the only exception is for 16 or 17 year-olds who are allowed to drink beer, wine or cider with food if with an adult (but they may not buy the alcohol themselves).”

However, I hear of more and more ‘adults’ justifying buying alcohol for children. It makes me question how safe children are?. Particularly when we find ourselves in a largely split parent/coparenting demographic in the UK. It makes enforcing parental boundaries and measures to keep our children safe, all the more difficult.

I enjoy drinking but I am an adult.
It's possible to model safe drinking around children without buying it for them

I think this is the most important post on the thread. And no, I wouldn't buy alcohol for teenagers to take to a party, I'd rather them learn to relax and enjoy themselves without needing a prop to artificially boost their confidence.

I recognise this. I think I’m category 1 there. DD wasn’t completely forbidden but I was modelling and discussing sensible drinking. She had a school friend whose parents were category 2. The only times she ever needed picking up or came home having drunk too much was from parties at this friend’s house. We lived rurally - even all night camping parties on farms were fine, it was just this one friend.
She’s late 20s now and still says it’s a risk going out with this friend.

But people do drink to self medicate, it is no different to any drug.

I know a fair bit about wine, as used to work in the industry and of course drank when younger.

But drink is not necessary - it is a massive part of our culture, but not all cultures.

It is not puritanical not to drink. There's so much denial about drinking culture.

Yes that’s the whole point of this thread. The NHS and the world health organisation are both based on evidence, and it is clear from the evidence that normalising alcohol and giving alcohol to children is more likely to lead to problematic issues with alcohol for those children. If you want to look up individual studies go to both website and look for the references.

It is a likelihood, so many children will be fine but why would you do something that would make it more likely to lead to harm for your kids later on?

I think most parents are trying their best, but it really shows that anecdotes and myths are not reliable to guide our parenting. And for some reason this myth of being the cool parent who helps their kids by giving them wine or beer whether occasional or regular before they are 16 has been really pervasive.

I remember at 16 my dad would always buy me a couple of blue WKDs to take to a house party, and always pick me up afterwards however late it was 🥰

I haven’t got to that point yet with my own DC, I’m secretly hoping alcohol is seen as millennial and uncool for teens now?

@BCCoach The instance I was thinking of was when I was taking her to a party. We stopped at an off license, she stayed in the car, I went into the offy and bought some booze (cans of lager I believe). I then continued to drive her to the party, gave her the booze and departed (lagerless).

At the time I thought that even buying by proxy was against the law, and that was the reason she stayed in the car. Was I wrong?

@Graciebobcat here you go. From The Lancet

Association of Parental supply of alcohol with adolescent harms

Findings:
Providing alcohol to children is associated with alcohol-related harms. There is no evidence to support the view that parental supply protects from adverse drinking outcomes by providing alcohol to their child. Parents should be advised that this practice is associated with risk, both directly and indirectly through increased access to alcohol from other sources.

I am not puritanical about alcohol. I drink, my children know I drink. But alcohol is not safe for developing brains. My kids are social and popular, they have friends, they go out at night. They are not controlled or restricted, quite the opposite in fact. It is quite possible to be a parent who trusts your child and encourages their independence but does not facilitate or normalise underage drinking.

The bacon butty I just ate wasn't necessary either but it was bloody delicious.

Vettrianofan · 20/10/2023 07:12

We allow DS (16) to drink with us at home. Sadly for him I tend to only have the odd shandy. We hardly drink alcohol at home. He has the odd cider at home with DH if he has bought some but that's not a regular thing either. He doesn't make a big deal out of alcohol which is a relief.

@Vettrianofan why is it “sadly for him”? Surely it’s a good thing that you only have “the odd shandy”?

BCCoach · 20/10/2023 10:01

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 23:21

@Mumof2teens79 ”At the end of the day its not illegal. Children can drink alcohol at home, the only way they can do that is if sn adult buys it.

My daughter wasn't allowed alcohol at parties till she was 15.5, “

I think if you look up UK legislation, you will find that your behaviour is illegal/criminal.
You've misunderstood the law. Parents giving alcohol to their under-16s, either to drink at home or take to a party in another private dwelling, are not breaking any law.

@BCCoach oh yes they are breaking the law, and perhaps part of the major problem with underage drinking, is that people like you need to be educated and prosecuted, if you are found to be supplying minors with alcohol and seriously harming them.

I have young adults, they were allowed alcohol at home and they could take drink to parties, they are well adjusted, didn't have issues with out of control drinking at university and one chosen a not to drink apart from special occasions. Forbidding them causes more problems in my experience. All my friends allowed their teens alcohol too, even my DD's Asian friend whose parents had a rather extensive wine cellar it turned out. Perhaps it's the circles we were in but wine with meals for teens was normal

It isn't illegal to supply an under 16 year old with alcohol, your very first post says "in a licensed premises". So sure, you can't buy them a drink in the pub, but you can give them alcohol at home from the age of 5. The rules about proxy purchasing don't apply to parents buying alcohol and then going on to give it to their kids.

No, parents giving alcohol under 16's to drink at home are not breaking the law. The PP is not the one who needs to be educated.

Licensing (Young Persons) Act 2000
"Proxy purchase

5.Prior to the Act, the law did not prohibit an adult buying alcohol on behalf of a child in off-licensed premises. This has been referred to as “proxy purchase”. The Act creates a new offence of buying or attempting to buy alcohol on behalf of a child in any licensed premises. A similar offence has existed in Scotland since 1976. A defence is available if the adult had no reason to suspect that the child was under 18. A parent who bought alcohol and subsequently gave it to his child would not commit an offence. The offence covers those who act as the agents of children in contracting sales. A parent contracts the sale in his or her own right, and is not acting as the child’s agent or go-between to effect the child’s own purchase."

Dacadactyl · 20/10/2023 07:25

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 22:31

@Chchchanging

Totally agree. I think a lot of adults want to validate their own alcohol use by starting their kids off early so ' they do it in a safe environment'...
So would they do that with cigarettes? Vapes? Other legal yet very harmful habits? Because the kids will do it anyway?
As a society our relationship with alcohol is very unhealthy. Its relied upon as a social crutch, to unwind, to deal with stress, to treat one's self, to forget worries, because social interaction is no fun without it. The whole 'wine o'clock' culture, drinking at home in the evening because its been earned, or its been a hell of a day, all those birthday cards with jokes about old women and gin etc etc. That is not healthy and teaching kids to do the same is not healthy either.
Modelling having fun and dealing with life's stresses without alcohol is far healthier for kids.
It's just not many people want to do that. Because it means addressing their own relationship with alcohol. Which probably wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.
I don't drink. I didn't buy my DC alcohol. I talked a lot about the downsides. Mine never went nuts. They don't really drink. They don't feel the need to..meanwhile all the kids whose parents put on drink laden parties for their kids and friends aged 15 are still regularly hammered and often doing worse things.
It's just not true that normalising alcohol use 'helps' kids.

That is such an interesting point and so valid. It goes against every maternal instinct in my body to supply alcohol to a child 14/15. I understand that 16/17 gets trickier and laws change at that age therefore surely that’s the time for a balanced discussion. Given the scientific information that we know, it would be so much more helpful if all parents had a blanket “no” pre 16. Perhaps there needs to be more serious consequences for those who knowingly harm children.
I feel your last sentence is hyperbole tbh.

As a parent, I am equipped to know whether my actions in buying a few cans are causing harm to my child or not. I do not think it is harmful. If I did, I wouldn't be doing it.

@Dacadactyl don’t be ridiculous why would I hyperbole on my own post, that’s genuinely trying to understand this worrying UK approach to children and alcohol. I would strongly advise that you are not equipped to know if you are doing your child harm from what you have disclosed. I urge you to do further research and take further advice.

@MidnightOnceMore

I drink alcoholic drinks I like the taste of, I don't drink the ones that I don't like. Whiskey in particular is revolting!

I don't drink to get drunk or even tipsy, I only drink for flavour. What I really don't like is fizzy drinks so that's most non alcoholic pub drinks and lager, it's the fizz - I let my tonic go flat! I'll happily drink redbush tea, lime cordial and water (not fizzy soda water though) etc but nothing beats the flavour of good red wine, a nice Bordeaux perhaps

It is not easy to navigate as a parent and especially not as a parent who has had a drink problem myself (now sober).

My eldest is 17 and since he was about 16.5 and started wanting to drink at parties etc I have purchased him some. I’d rather he didn’t drink but I am realistic I can’t ban it and I’d rather he was drinking a controlled amount of what I buy (beers, corona usually) rather than cans of Dragon Soop, bottles of spirits or anything else he can get his hands on.

If he has people round here then they are not allowed to have alcohol unless there is an adult (me or DH) here as I am not having other people’s children drinking in my house with no adult present. The other parents of kids he is friends with all seem pretty responsible too when they are at their houses.

my youngest is nearly 15 and I won’t be buying or condoning him drinking alcohol for the foreseeable future. He’s not interested just now anyway

PinkRoses1245 · 20/10/2023 07:25

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 16:29

Police have the power to charge those over 18 who knowingly buy alcohol for anyone under the legal drinking age (buying by proxy). It is important that older friends and family know that they could be charged for supplying alcohol irresponsibly.
I think the police have better use of their time.

@PinkRoses1245 it depends what you view as important. I would like to think any educated, person/child centred police force would have had adequate training about the dangers of over 18’s supplying alcohol to children and the damage and harm that does to children, and how vulnerable it makes those CHILDREN to other abuse and crimes.

Remaker · 20/10/2023 10:59

I have a 17.5 year old and an almost 16 year old. I have never supplied alcohol for them in any form and I won’t until they are 18. I’m in Australia and alcohol isn’t legal until 18 though I think it isn’t strictly illegal to give your own child alcohol in your home. I’ll admit I am always completely horrified by the MN discussions where people cheerfully say they give their 13 or 14 yo alcohol on special occasions. I think it is irresponsible.

I think parents these days have bought into the myth that if they know their child is drinking then it is safer than if they don’t know. In reality there is no safe level of drinking for under 18s. And parents providing alcohol to minors leads to more problematic drinking, not less. Mumsnet doesn’t agree but those are the facts.

I don’t guarantee that my stance will stop my kids from sampling any alcohol. However I see them when they come home from being out with friends and they are clearly not drunk. So if they’re having it, it’s not to excess.

We have had many conversations about alcohol and drugs and they know they can always call me or DH if anything has happened to them or a friend. And that when in doubt they should call an ambulance. Our primary concern is their health and wellbeing

@Remaker thank you 👏❤️

EarthlyNightshade · 20/10/2023 15:02

So as it stands 68% of people think it is reasonable to buy alcohol for children aged 15 and under.
I wonder do some of these people also buy vapes, cigarettes for their children to teach responsible smoking?
(I do know someone who buys vapes for their 16 year old as they worry about them getting hold of unregulated products but that is literally one person, while I know quite a few who would buy drink.)

@EarthlyNightshade it’s a real eye opener. I would like to think the powers that be in the UK, that should be protecting our CHILDREN are hanging their heads in shame. The GUARDIANS’ of these CHILDREN, are in the majority for arguing that they are ‘right’ to supply them with alcohol. Many many organisations need some joined up working to protect our children. MPs, Police, Education, NHS… and many many more.

fost · Today 22:42

No, parents giving alcohol under 16's to drink at home are not breaking the law. The PP is not the one who needs to be educated.

Licensing (Young Persons) Act 2000
"Proxy purchase

5.Prior to the Act, the law did not prohibit an adult buying alcohol on behalf of a child in off-licensed premises. This has been referred to as “proxy purchase”. The Act creates a new offence of buying or attempting to buy alcohol on behalf of a child in any licensed premises. A similar offence has existed in Scotland since 1976. A defence is available if the adult had no reason to suspect that the child was under 18. A parent who bought alcohol and subsequently gave it to his child would not commit an offence. The offence covers those who act as the agents of children in contracting sales. A parent contracts the sale in his or her own right, and is not acting as the child’s agent or go-between to effect the child’s own purchase."

Yes, the PP is the one that needs to be educated, if you are buying alcohol for under 18’s you are the problem.

“A defence is available if the adult had no reason to suspect that the child was under 18. A parent who bought alcohol and subsequently gave it to his child would not commit an offence.”

How utterly bonkers that you are looking for a defence in law to excuse giving minors alcohol. There are many campaigns in my area right now warming over 18’s that they will prosecute those who are found to be knowingly buying alcohol for minors… because of new legislation… because they now know the risks and harms to a developing body and brain. No one is saying that 16 and 17 year olds won’t find a way. 14 and 15 year old children being supplied alcohol (effectively a poison) by their own parents? It should be taken very seriously as a criminal offence and then we wouldn’t even be having this debate. It shouldn’t even be a debate given the very clear scientific evidence. And sadly, this is when we acutely need the help of a Nanny state.

*warning

This thread is completely impossible to follow now.

Yep, what is the OP doing?!