To think it is dangerous to buy/or support buying alcohol for under 16s

[Theemeperorsnewclothes]

“It is illegal to buy alcohol for someone under 18 in a licensed premises, the only exception is for 16 or 17 year-olds who are allowed to drink beer, wine or cider with food if with an adult (but they may not buy the alcohol themselves).”

However, I hear of more and more ‘adults’ justifying buying alcohol for children. It makes me question how safe children are?. Particularly when we find ourselves in a largely split parent/coparenting demographic in the UK. It makes enforcing parental boundaries and measures to keep our children safe, all the more difficult.

There are more and more negatives coming out about starting to drink alcohol before the age of eighteen. Even until the age of 25 the brain is still very affected because it is still developing.
I would never buy alcoholic drinks for underage kids.

I think some of the health risks are being conflated with social/mental health stuff which are coming from somewhere else and not the alcohol itself- though they can certainly be exacerbated and no-one is going to get severe liver damage from drinking two cans of <5% cider a few times a year whether they are 16 or 26.

I have zero liver damage from the amount I drank socially in my teens and early 20s and I drank way too much.

So are you suggesting that parents can never drink in front of their children? Or that drinking is something that people should feel guilty about? That sets kids up for a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. Alcohol was never taboo in family. Getting drunk absolutely was though. The normalisation of being drunk in British culture is the problem. Not drinking alcohol.

The normalisation of being drunk in British culture is the problem. Not drinking alcohol.

Exactly. It was practically de rigueur from Gen X in the 1990s/2000 to get blootered once or twice a week from the age of 16/17- and as for my friends, none of our parents drank much alcohol themselves. Either that or people didn't drink much but were taking Es, speed or LSD.

It really is not the norm for Gen Z, it's hard to get in places without ID and it's expensive.

@SharonEllis

So are you suggesting that parents can never drink in front of their children? Or that drinking is something that people should feel guilty about? That sets kids up for a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. Alcohol was never taboo in family. Getting drunk absolutely was though. The normalisation of being drunk in British culture is the problem. Not drinking alcohol.

I'm absolutely not saying parents can never drink in front of their children.

There's a huge difference between parents offering to give their kids some watered down wine or beer occasionally, and doing what my dad did, which was to offer me a glass of wine every night from the age of about 14. That's where the normalisation part comes in. I think modelling responsible drinking is good as long as it genuinely is responsible drinking (ie occasional and little).

An awful lot of people will talk about giving their teenagers "a little bit of watered down wine with their meal" but it will turn out to mean every meal. Which is not responsible at all.

Also I sort of agree with you that its the normalisation of being drunk which is the problem. But let's be honest alcohol is a problem in itself. It's bad for people, even in surprisingly small doses. A lot of people like to pretend there's a hard line between "drinking" and "being drunk". It's much more complicated than this. Yes plenty of people drink regularly but without damaging their health.

But its perfectly possible to drink in a very respectable way which nevertheless is very dangerous for your body and mind. Normalising the idea that drinking is fine as long as you aren't vomiting into a bin in the City Centre or bashing some bloke's head in isn't really responsible drinking. It's normalising respectable alcoholism.

Basically the less alcohol you drink, the better. Any kind of "normalisation" is slightly unhealthy.

Fair enough! I stand corrected, I'll have to look into it a bit more I think. Our DD is only 2 and the other one isn't even born yet so plenty of time before we'd even consider it! 😂

My parents allowed me to have an occasional glass of wine with dinner from when I was about 12 and a glass of sherry or a snowball on special occasions. Because of this, alcohol was never something mysterious that I felt the need to try when my parents' backs were turned. I drank when I was a teen, but not often to excess, and can count the number of times I've ever been really drunk on two hands. Now that I'm in my 60s I very very rarely drink - I think the last time I had any alcohol was over a year ago.

We brought our daughter up in a similar way, and let her have an occasional alcopop, glass of wine etc. from her early teens and although she drank quite a lot at university, by the time she was in her mid 20s she drank very little, and has now converted to Islam so drinks nothing alcoholic at all.

I do think the comment about about living in a largely split/co parent demographic is a very negative and depressing outlook, and isn't accurate.

I don’t agree that all teenagers drink, and I believe many more these days don’t drink at all.

I also find the idea that parents ‘normalising’ alcohol use encourages sensible drinking later on very odd. We wouldn’t believe that nonsense with any other type of drug.

My parents didn’t drink, and parties and family occasions didn’t depend on alcohol. So I didn’t associate having fun, being social or having a meal as something involving alcohol.

I have tried some wine as an adult but didn’t like the sickly feeling it gave me.

It wasn’t a ‘forbidden’ thing. It just wasn’t even a thing.

My parents didn't normalise drinking alcohol when I was a teenager but my peers and wider society did. I'm not saying Britain no longer has a drink problem but it's no longer normalised for under age drinkers as it once was.

I have a 17.5 year old and an almost 16 year old. I have never supplied alcohol for them in any form and I won’t until they are 18. I’m in Australia and alcohol isn’t legal until 18 though I think it isn’t strictly illegal to give your own child alcohol in your home. I’ll admit I am always completely horrified by the MN discussions where people cheerfully say they give their 13 or 14 yo alcohol on special occasions. I think it is irresponsible.

I think parents these days have bought into the myth that if they know their child is drinking then it is safer than if they don’t know. In reality there is no safe level of drinking for under 18s. And parents providing alcohol to minors leads to more problematic drinking, not less. Mumsnet doesn’t agree but those are the facts.

I don’t guarantee that my stance will stop my kids from sampling any alcohol. However I see them when they come home from being out with friends and they are clearly not drunk. So if they’re having it, it’s not to excess.

We have had many conversations about alcohol and drugs and they know they can always call me or DH if anything has happened to them or a friend. And that when in doubt they should call an ambulance. Our primary concern is their health and wellbeing.

And parents providing alcohol to minors leads to more problematic drinking, not less

Any studies to show this?

@Remaker

I think parents these days have bought into the myth that if they know their child is drinking then it is safer than if they don’t know. In reality there is no safe level of drinking for under 18s. And parents providing alcohol to minors leads to more problematic drinking, not less. Mumsnet doesn’t agree but those are the facts.

Agree with this. It's very simple. The less alcohol, the better. People can dress it up in any way they like with an acceptable middle class veneer, but for teenagers basically the impetus should be to avoid drinking as far as possible.

That doesn't mean a total zero tolerance hardline temperance approach with stringent punishments etc. But the idea that "normalising" it leads to healthier drinking is delusional.

My parents wouldn't have dreamt of giving me a glass of wine every night at 14. Not ever, at that age, undiluted. I think you're proving my point. But they modelled a responsible enjoyment of alcohol, which my Mum got from her parents (also loved a drink, never, ever got drunk) which is not only fine, but has been really effective with both me & my sister. I don't think alcohol is, in itself a problem & its obvious nonsense to say normalising drinking is normalising alcoholism. Liking wine or beer, and being an alcoholic, are quite literally 2 different things and one doesn't lead to the other any more than eating a piece of cake automatically leads to obesity or diabetes. I certainly intend to carry it on my mum's philosophy with my own teenagers who think getting drunk sounds completely disgusting.

@SharonEllis I agree with your take. I think there seems to be two extreme views when it comes to alcohol and there is a middle ground. Alcohol isn't the devil and it's not bad for you in small doses, however the concept of a small dose is so different to everyone. I drink a glass of wine, maybe once per week.
I like your comparison to cake. It's interesting as my mum would very often 'treat' herself to a cake or dessert after a long day. I distinctly remember this happening, and she still stress eats! I struggled with comfort eating for a long time. If she did the same with alcohol, I'm sure I'd have probably struggled with that.
It's the attitude we model that's the important part. I think the alcohol part is neither here nor there.
Ultimately as a society we won't have very healthy coping mechanisms for stress that we show our kids, and that's what should be nipped in the bud.

Yes, I think you're right, that's a good way of thinking about it. It's about the attitude. Alcohol was another delicious thing like good food that you do in good company - & is moderated by that company (& btw my mum was working class in response to an earlier comment). It was not modelled as an emotional crutch.

I was bought up with alcohol in the house, around my Dads social life and being in the working mens club and seeing him have a couple of pints, at home it was a glass of wine with dinner, a bacardi and coke of an evening watching TV.

My parents drank responsibly, and they taught us to drink responsibly.

I have seen people drunk, and sure, couple of times i went out as an 18/19yo and drank past my limit and suffered for it.

I think teaching kids that drink in moderation is ok, is a sensible approach.

As an adult i don't really drink, might have a bottle of fruit cider, or a rum and coke on a friday/saturday night, or a glass of wine with sunday dinner, so my kids are being bought up the same.. as yet neither have shown interest in even trying anything alcoholic, but we do chat about being sensible, what it feels like, finding limits, eating before drinking, using mixers to stay hydrated, alternating with soft drinks...etc.

I also ascribe strongly to the belief that to keep drinking once you're merry is a waste of money and alcohol and repeat that belief to my kids.

My ex and I were social drinkers only. But I get your point about making it the norm to be a bit pissed in front of your kids. We were older parents and she is now mid twenties, so you can see I’m much older. It was just something we didn’t think about then. We could easily drink underage in pubs because they were very lax then.

On the assumption my Dd would be going to parties where alcohol was I thought about how I could mitigate the dangers. It wasn’t the drinking itself, it was being inexperienced, getting drunk and being in unsafe situations.

At first she could only go to a party if I knew the parents were going to actively be there and I was picking her up. Eg 15 yrs

Obviously there were lots of chats about not only her possible safety, but her friends and any risky behaviour from the bravado of being drunk.

I kept cash under the inside door mat so she could always get a taxi , and never walk home alone from town. (10min walk). She also had to text me when she was back home. Then when I woke in the night I could read that.

Next I had an arrangement that if she ever felt uncomfortable somewhere I would come and get her no questions asked. I had practically stopped drinking by then. The next day we would discuss what went wrong and how she could do things differently next time.

Finally I bought her a breathalyser off Amazon. I hoped that she could use it with her friends, so they could learn to see how quickly you can be drunker than you think. And also if she ever stayed over and was driving the next day.

I did buy her or supply alcohol when she was about 17. I knew it was illegal, but my reasoning at that time was that she was off to university within months and I sort of wanted to be able to see her being responsible about alcohol before she left home entirely. (See my fudgey thinking there).

OP I don’t agree with everything you say, but I think this is a thought provoking thread asking us to examine our assumptions about allowing teens to drink when it is in fact unlawful, and it will be unlawful because presumably people who are experts in this field have decided iI is unsafe for teens.

By the way, my ex still drinks as much as he ever did. Times have changed and now his drinking seems excessive to me, my Dd and future son in law.

So as it stands 68% of people think it is reasonable to buy alcohol for children aged 15 and under.
I wonder do some of these people also buy vapes, cigarettes for their children to teach responsible smoking?
(I do know someone who buys vapes for their 16 year old as they worry about them getting hold of unregulated products but that is literally one person, while I know quite a few who would buy drink.)

My 14 year old has an occasional cider shandy with a roast or a big meal. I think it's better to introduce teens to alcohol in the home than having their first drink in a park.

This is ridiculous. As you well know there is no responsible or healthy level of smoking, because of fire & environmental risk as well as health risks which are irrefutable. There absolutely is a responsible level of drinking. Responsible drinking is not just about units. It's about modelling a responsible culture around drinking. I.e drinking alcohol can be part of enjoying good food & company. Drinking to get drunk or drinking cheap booze just to get drunk is a completely different activity.

Not drinking is healthier than drinking.

Why do people need to drink? Self medication. Drinkers always justify drinking. L

Nobody needs to drink. People like to drink. A gorgeous wine, or real ale, or gin is a delicious and enjoyable thing. You lot really are weird. People have put so much effort into creating delicious alcoholic drinks for centuries - the puritanical attitudes on here are really out of step with a long cultural tradition. Nobody has to drink it - its up to you. Drinking to self medicate is an entirely different thing and I would advise against it & certainly would not bring my children up to think it's wise. If you need medication, see a doctor.

Clearly it's better to be in a safer environment, but they really don't need to be drinking any alcohol at 14!

@Isheabastard

"I did buy her or supply alcohol when she was about 17. I knew it was illegal,..."

No it wasn't. I don't know where people have got this idea from.

It's illegal for a licenced premises to supply alcohol to under 18 year old (with the exception of wine, beer or cider with a meal, where the age limit is 16).

It's illegal to proxy buy for an under 18 year old - this is where the child gives you money and you buy alcohol on their behalf.

It's absolutely not illegal for someone to give alcohol to an under 18 year old in non-licenced premises (such as a private dwelling).

I don't think there is any safe level for someone of 15 or under to be drinking.