Page 4 | To think it is dangerous to buy/or support buying alcohol for under 16s

ntmdino · 19/10/2023 22:14

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 21:30

This is an area where we believe in the myth that teenagers will
a) drink anyway so the myth is it’s safer for them at home.
b) somehow ‘learn’ to drink better with adults.
c) drinking at home or ‘allowing’ will have no adverse affects.
d) that not normalising alcohol will lead to repressed kids who will then go crazy about alcohol later.

The above are all myths. They are not true.

There is good, reliable evidence out there. What does it say?

It says:
That the longer teenagers can stay off alcohol the better their outcomes - they are more likely NOT to bave problematic behaviour related to alcohol.

The longer that parents can set the tone that alcohol is better abstained from until at least 16, again the kids are more likely NOT to have problematics behaviour or alcohol dependency.

This is not the same as banning alcohol or telling kids never to drink alcohol. But it is that if parents can avoid normalising alcohol and avoid introducing it to kids in the home - the better the outcomes.

It doesn’t matter that a lot of parents on mumsnet believe otherwise - they just believe a myth that is all hearsay.

@ToastMarmalade this is what I wanted to say… but you were able to put it much more eloquently than me. Thanks 👏

Thing is...it doesn't matter how many times you say that it's just a myth...the fact is that our daughter was the only one in her entire year at school who reached 16 and didn't regularly drink.

Accordingly, I'm pretty glad that we did it that way.

Chchchanging · 19/10/2023 22:18

ToastMarmalade · 19/10/2023 21:11

This is an area where we believe in the myth that teenagers will
a) drink anyway so the myth is it’s safer for them at home.
b) somehow ‘learn’ to drink better with adults.
c) drinking at home or ‘allowing’ will have no adverse affects.
d) that not normalising alcohol will lead to repressed kids who will then go crazy about alcohol later.

The above are all myths. They are not true.

There is good, reliable evidence out there. What does it say?

It says:
That the longer teenagers can stay off alcohol the better their outcomes - they are more likely NOT to bave problematic behaviour related to alcohol.

The longer that parents can set the tone that alcohol is better abstained from until at least 16, again the kids are more likely NOT to have problematics behaviour or alcohol dependency.

This is not the same as banning alcohol or telling kids never to drink alcohol. But it is that if parents can avoid normalising alcohol and avoid introducing it to kids in the home - the better the outcomes.

It doesn’t matter that a lot of parents on mumsnet believe otherwise - they just believe a myth that is all hearsay.

Totally agree. I think a lot of adults want to validate their own alcohol use by starting their kids off early so ' they do it in a safe environment'...
So would they do that with cigarettes? Vapes? Other legal yet very harmful habits? Because the kids will do it anyway?
As a society our relationship with alcohol is very unhealthy. Its relied upon as a social crutch, to unwind, to deal with stress, to treat one's self, to forget worries, because social interaction is no fun without it. The whole 'wine o'clock' culture, drinking at home in the evening because its been earned, or its been a hell of a day, all those birthday cards with jokes about old women and gin etc etc. That is not healthy and teaching kids to do the same is not healthy either.
Modelling having fun and dealing with life's stresses without alcohol is far healthier for kids.
It's just not many people want to do that. Because it means addressing their own relationship with alcohol. Which probably wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.
I don't drink. I didn't buy my DC alcohol. I talked a lot about the downsides. Mine never went nuts. They don't really drink. They don't feel the need to..meanwhile all the kids whose parents put on drink laden parties for their kids and friends aged 15 are still regularly hammered and often doing worse things.
It's just not true that normalising alcohol use 'helps' kids.

Desecratedcoconut · 19/10/2023 22:24

I was always allowed to drink watered down wine at Sunday dinner from about 6 years old. I've been ruined by it - I'm a social pariah who still prefers her wine watered down.

Original poster

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 22:31

@Chchchanging

Totally agree. I think a lot of adults want to validate their own alcohol use by starting their kids off early so ' they do it in a safe environment'...
So would they do that with cigarettes? Vapes? Other legal yet very harmful habits? Because the kids will do it anyway?
As a society our relationship with alcohol is very unhealthy. Its relied upon as a social crutch, to unwind, to deal with stress, to treat one's self, to forget worries, because social interaction is no fun without it. The whole 'wine o'clock' culture, drinking at home in the evening because its been earned, or its been a hell of a day, all those birthday cards with jokes about old women and gin etc etc. That is not healthy and teaching kids to do the same is not healthy either.
Modelling having fun and dealing with life's stresses without alcohol is far healthier for kids.
It's just not many people want to do that. Because it means addressing their own relationship with alcohol. Which probably wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.
I don't drink. I didn't buy my DC alcohol. I talked a lot about the downsides. Mine never went nuts. They don't really drink. They don't feel the need to..meanwhile all the kids whose parents put on drink laden parties for their kids and friends aged 15 are still regularly hammered and often doing worse things.
It's just not true that normalising alcohol use 'helps' kids.

That is such an interesting point and so valid. It goes against every maternal instinct in my body to supply alcohol to a child 14/15. I understand that 16/17 gets trickier and laws change at that age therefore surely that’s the time for a balanced discussion. Given the scientific information that we know, it would be so much more helpful if all parents had a blanket “no” pre 16. Perhaps there needs to be more serious consequences for those who knowingly harm children.

OP posts:

piesforever · 19/10/2023 22:35

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/10/2023 16:22

I'm going to go against the grain here: I don't think its great to normalise alcohol around kids.

My parents (dad functional alcoholic, mum not but enabled him) both subscribed to the bullshit theory that "continental-style" drinking (wine with meals etc) was fine and it was better to introduce children to drinking moderately at home than not drink and have them go off and drink unsupervised. I understand the theory but in practice more often than not it was just a fig leaf to allow the parents to get slaughtered in front of their children but feel OK about it because it was in the guise of "being like the French".

I grew up to loathe being around my dad when he was drinking wine and I dreaded him offering it to me. I'd far rather they just didn't drink at home, or drank very modestly.

Teens do drink and it probably is better to have some overview as to what they are drinking and with whom but I think quite a lot of this is just parents allowing themselves to drink in front of kids in a guilt-free way. Far healthier for kids to get used to alcohol not being involved in every get together and served with every meal than to introduce it all the time and kid yourself its healthier just because its done with parents.

Totally agree

Biasquia · 19/10/2023 22:40

I teach young adults/adults. They drink way less than we did at their ages. My now adult DD is highly judgmental of our generation’s drinking culture as she sees it on TV. We don’t drink much in front of our kids but I in general think that generation is much more about taking drugs than drinking. That is what I overhear my student’s talking about a lot, they are sports and gym mad and it is easier to do that without a hangover.

Foxesandsquirrels · 19/10/2023 22:50

@Biasquia I agree. This generation of teens has had very different influences from media. Shows like euphoria etc which glamorise drugs have shaped their view. There's not much alcohol consumption tbh.
The vast majority of issues at DDs school are drug related. Very few alcohol.

DesTeeny · 19/10/2023 23:06

DH and I are essentially tee-total (we drink very small amounts, rarely, usually only on special occasions). We have said that when we're having a drink our DDs can have one, once they're over the age of 14.

My understanding is that in Europe it's more commonplace for younger people to have a drink with a meal for example, and this normalisation is partly what's set the continent apart somewhat from the excessive drinking culture that we had here in the UK?

I don't really see anything wrong with allowing a 14yo to have a Bucks Fizz on Christmas Day or a white wine spritzer on their birthday etc. although I'm happy to be corrected!

Mumof2teens79 · 19/10/2023 23:14

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 16:08

“It is illegal to buy alcohol for someone under 18 in a licensed premises, the only exception is for 16 or 17 year-olds who are allowed to drink beer, wine or cider with food if with an adult (but they may not buy the alcohol themselves).”

However, I hear of more and more ‘adults’ justifying buying alcohol for children. It makes me question how safe children are?. Particularly when we find ourselves in a largely split parent/coparenting demographic in the UK. It makes enforcing parental boundaries and measures to keep our children safe, all the more difficult.

You have given reasons why it's illegal but not why it's dangerous?

At the end of the day its not illegal. Children can drink alcohol at home, the only way they can do that is if sn adult buys it.

My daughter wasn't allowed alcohol at parties till she was 15.5, I had offered her prosecco at family gatherings but she wasn't keen. I have seen some of her younger friends drink whole bottles of vodka neat and pass-out, but I also want her to be able to go to parties without feeling out of place. So we discuss what she might drink, we negotiate, we talk about number and size of drinks etc and I feel this works a lot better than her going to a party and sharing a litre of cheap knock off vodka with a friend.

Original poster

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 23:18

@Foxesandsquirrels

It is the Sun, but their info does come from credible sources.

“DOCTORS ORDERS Doctors warn children should not drink alcohol at home blasting the French family drinking ‘myth’”

“This is the idea that giving children a small amount of drink when they are young will stop them going over the top when they grow up.
He said: “While some may believe that the traditional French ‘Mediterranean’ approach has helped France avoid significant alcohol-related problems, the World Health Organization reported that alcohol consumption is higher and years of life lost is higher in France than in the UK.”
Health bosses in Britain urge parents to explain the dangers of alcohol to their kids before letting them have any.”

OP posts:

Foxesandsquirrels · 19/10/2023 23:20

@Theemeperorsnewclothes I think you tagged the wrong person... I don't give my kids a small amount at home.
DD has had the dangers of alcohol explained to her at length.

Original poster

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 23:21

@Mumof2teens79 ”At the end of the day its not illegal. Children can drink alcohol at home, the only way they can do that is if sn adult buys it.

My daughter wasn't allowed alcohol at parties till she was 15.5, “

I think if you look up UK legislation, you will find that your behaviour is illegal/criminal.

OP posts:

Original poster

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 23:25

Apologies @Foxesandsquirrels that reply was for @DesTeeny

It is the Sun, but their info does come from credible sources.

“DOCTORS ORDERS Doctors warn children should not drink alcohol at home blasting the French family drinking ‘myth’”

“This is the idea that giving children a small amount of drink when they are young will stop them going over the top when they grow up.
He said: “While some may believe that the traditional French ‘Mediterranean’ approach has helped France avoid significant alcohol-related problems, the World Health Organization reported that alcohol consumption is higher and years of life lost is higher in France than in the UK.”
Health bosses in Britain urge parents to explain the dangers of alcohol to their kids before letting them have any.”

OP posts:

Desecratedcoconut · 19/10/2023 23:29

It is legal for anyone over 5yo to drink in a private property. Obviously there are legalities around neglect, but it's not illegal in and of itself.

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/keeping-children-safe/talking-drugs-alcohol/underage-drinking/

Underage drinking

https://www.nspcc.org.uk/keeping-children-safe/talking-drugs-alcohol/underage-drinking

Weedoormatnomore · 20/10/2023 06:40

Interested to read people's replys my DS turns 16 this month and asked for a few drinks with mates at our home I was obviously too strict and went no straight away. He has had a few drinks the last year at bbqs or special occasions but only a cider or two.

SharonEllis · 20/10/2023 07:00

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/10/2023 16:22

I'm going to go against the grain here: I don't think its great to normalise alcohol around kids.

My parents (dad functional alcoholic, mum not but enabled him) both subscribed to the bullshit theory that "continental-style" drinking (wine with meals etc) was fine and it was better to introduce children to drinking moderately at home than not drink and have them go off and drink unsupervised. I understand the theory but in practice more often than not it was just a fig leaf to allow the parents to get slaughtered in front of their children but feel OK about it because it was in the guise of "being like the French".

I grew up to loathe being around my dad when he was drinking wine and I dreaded him offering it to me. I'd far rather they just didn't drink at home, or drank very modestly.

Teens do drink and it probably is better to have some overview as to what they are drinking and with whom but I think quite a lot of this is just parents allowing themselves to drink in front of kids in a guilt-free way. Far healthier for kids to get used to alcohol not being involved in every get together and served with every meal than to introduce it all the time and kid yourself its healthier just because its done with parents.

Both my parents subscribed to 'continental style' drinking & encourage us to have small amounts of diluted alcohol with a meal alongside them from around age 8. I have never seen my Mum drunk & my dad only once & I'm over 50. They also taught us never to get drunk & only drink in moderation & to drink because you like the drink not to get drunk. An alcoholic is going to use anything as a cover. Teaching kids to drink responsibly is a really good idea imo.

Vettrianofan · 20/10/2023 07:12

We allow DS (16) to drink with us at home. Sadly for him I tend to only have the odd shandy. We hardly drink alcohol at home. He has the odd cider at home with DH if he has bought some but that's not a regular thing either. He doesn't make a big deal out of alcohol which is a relief.

Dacadactyl · 20/10/2023 07:25

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 22:31

@Chchchanging

Totally agree. I think a lot of adults want to validate their own alcohol use by starting their kids off early so ' they do it in a safe environment'...
So would they do that with cigarettes? Vapes? Other legal yet very harmful habits? Because the kids will do it anyway?
As a society our relationship with alcohol is very unhealthy. Its relied upon as a social crutch, to unwind, to deal with stress, to treat one's self, to forget worries, because social interaction is no fun without it. The whole 'wine o'clock' culture, drinking at home in the evening because its been earned, or its been a hell of a day, all those birthday cards with jokes about old women and gin etc etc. That is not healthy and teaching kids to do the same is not healthy either.
Modelling having fun and dealing with life's stresses without alcohol is far healthier for kids.
It's just not many people want to do that. Because it means addressing their own relationship with alcohol. Which probably wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.
I don't drink. I didn't buy my DC alcohol. I talked a lot about the downsides. Mine never went nuts. They don't really drink. They don't feel the need to..meanwhile all the kids whose parents put on drink laden parties for their kids and friends aged 15 are still regularly hammered and often doing worse things.
It's just not true that normalising alcohol use 'helps' kids.

That is such an interesting point and so valid. It goes against every maternal instinct in my body to supply alcohol to a child 14/15. I understand that 16/17 gets trickier and laws change at that age therefore surely that’s the time for a balanced discussion. Given the scientific information that we know, it would be so much more helpful if all parents had a blanket “no” pre 16. Perhaps there needs to be more serious consequences for those who knowingly harm children.

I feel your last sentence is hyperbole tbh.

As a parent, I am equipped to know whether my actions in buying a few cans are causing harm to my child or not. I do not think it is harmful. If I did, I wouldn't be doing it.

PinkRoses1245 · 20/10/2023 07:25

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 16:29

Police have the power to charge those over 18 who knowingly buy alcohol for anyone under the legal drinking age (buying by proxy). It is important that older friends and family know that they could be charged for supplying alcohol irresponsibly.

I think the police have better use of their time.

LolaSmiles · 20/10/2023 08:39

Context is everything. Buying a couple of bottles of beer for a 16/17 year old college students to have round a friend's house is very different to giving 15 year olds enough alcopops to get smashed round at someone's house who clearly has a problematic approach to alcohol

Thepeopleversuswork · 20/10/2023 09:55

LolaSmiles · 20/10/2023 08:39

Context is everything. Buying a couple of bottles of beer for a 16/17 year old college students to have round a friend's house is very different to giving 15 year olds enough alcopops to get smashed round at someone's house who clearly has a problematic approach to alcohol

Absolutely. But the wider culture around drink in the home is massively important.

Buying a couple of bottles of beer for a 16/17 year old whose parents drink sparingly or moderately is very different from buying a couple of bottles for a 16/17 year old whose parents get smashed every night. The teenager in the first scenario is likely to have a better grasp of where to stop than the teenager in the second.

The tone and expectations that parents set around alcohol will dictate how the children see its role in the family. If your parents are addicted to it, or just use it as an emotional crutch, you are likely to internalise a lot of that.

BCCoach · 20/10/2023 09:58

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 16:25

I am genuinely interested to hear your replies. I can’t get away from the fact that it is illegal to supply an under 16 with alcohol and it goes against all my maternal instincts to supply my own child with alcohol. I completely appreciate that they will find a way, and there is an argument for controlling the situation re what they actually drink… but it is damaging, in so many ways. We are not our children’s friends, we are their guardians.

It's not illegal to give alcohol to an under 16. The quote from your OP is about drinking in licenced premises i.e. a pub or restaurant. In unlicenced premises such as a private dwelling the age limit is 5.

BCCoach · 20/10/2023 10:01

Theemeperorsnewclothes · 19/10/2023 23:21

@Mumof2teens79 ”At the end of the day its not illegal. Children can drink alcohol at home, the only way they can do that is if sn adult buys it.

My daughter wasn't allowed alcohol at parties till she was 15.5, “

I think if you look up UK legislation, you will find that your behaviour is illegal/criminal.

You've misunderstood the law. Parents giving alcohol to their under-16s, either to drink at home or take to a party in another private dwelling, are not breaking any law.

Graciebobcat · 20/10/2023 10:05

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/10/2023 16:22

I'm going to go against the grain here: I don't think its great to normalise alcohol around kids.

My parents (dad functional alcoholic, mum not but enabled him) both subscribed to the bullshit theory that "continental-style" drinking (wine with meals etc) was fine and it was better to introduce children to drinking moderately at home than not drink and have them go off and drink unsupervised. I understand the theory but in practice more often than not it was just a fig leaf to allow the parents to get slaughtered in front of their children but feel OK about it because it was in the guise of "being like the French".

I grew up to loathe being around my dad when he was drinking wine and I dreaded him offering it to me. I'd far rather they just didn't drink at home, or drank very modestly.

Teens do drink and it probably is better to have some overview as to what they are drinking and with whom but I think quite a lot of this is just parents allowing themselves to drink in front of kids in a guilt-free way. Far healthier for kids to get used to alcohol not being involved in every get together and served with every meal than to introduce it all the time and kid yourself its healthier just because its done with parents.

I think that view is understandable from your personal experiences.

I drank a lot more and regularly as a teenager before I was 18 than DDs did and my parents were more "a sweet sherry at Christmas" type drinkers - i.e. hardly at all. I was drinking five x 330ml bottles of strong cider every Friday evening when I was 16/17.

Though at least I did so in a relatively safe space with friends and then never went crazy at university as I was already used to alcohol. Whereas the kids who had just been let loose - oh dear.

For me, there is zero alcoholism in the family so I've always been relaxed about it. I drink, like, two gin and tonics a week these days. DDs are 18 and 14, DD1 has the odd night out but seems quite sensible and DD2 isn't bothered about it yet at all. DD1 had the odd can of fruity cider at parties when she was 16/17.

Thepeopleversuswork · 20/10/2023 10:17

@SharonEllis

Both my parents subscribed to 'continental style' drinking & encourage us to have small amounts of diluted alcohol with a meal alongside them from around age 8. I have never seen my Mum drunk & my dad only once & I'm over 50. They also taught us never to get drunk & only drink in moderation & to drink because you like the drink not to get drunk. An alcoholic is going to use anything as a cover. Teaching kids to drink responsibly is a really good idea imo.

Sure. Of course parents with a problematic relationship with drink are going to find their loophole, whatever it may be.

But the "continental drinking" thing has been pretty effectively debunked (as a PP pointed out). It's very obvious that the more you normalise alcohol the more likely kids are to drink.

I don't think the "continental drinking" approach automatically going to make every child an alcoholic but I do think parents who do this are usually not being entirely honest with themselves.

It sounds to me as if yours didn't have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol but had nevertheless bought into this theory. I don't buy it at all. I think it most cases its a get out of jail free card for parents who want to booze around their kids and not feel guilty.