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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

wonder what has happened to couple who freebirthed in Carribean?

388 replies

StrangerYears · 19/10/2023 03:43

Clive and Iuliia Gurzhii were all over the news for 3 days in August, after idiotically going to give birth on a beach a long way from home.
The birth was unwitnessed and very odd circumstances.
I googled them and all I could find was a gofundme (never saw that one coming!!) - it raised GBP128 out of an ambitious target of GBP15.000.

Do you think they are still out there?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
NewName24 · 31/07/2024 22:51

Good find @taxnotme
I do think about them sometimes. That first thread was brilliant with all the detective work done by various MNers.
I mean, I feel for the older, abandoned daughter, and, in future for the baby, having these two "parenting" them.

TooBigForMyBoots · 01/08/2024 00:18

I'm confused.Confused

I'm aware of the bonkers background, but where is everyone now?

SwingTheMonkey · 01/08/2024 00:28

TooBigForMyBoots · 01/08/2024 00:18

I'm confused.Confused

I'm aware of the bonkers background, but where is everyone now?

It sounds like the wife and baby are unable to return home for some reason. The husband has been back and forth but is currently residing in a Cayman Island prison (as is wife) accused of people smuggling 2 Ethiopian men. Nobody knows where the baby or older daughter are, nor how they are finding their lifestyle (although the people smuggling might go some way to explaining that).

SwingTheMonkey · 01/08/2024 00:35

Hopefully Clive has a trusty copy of a King James Bible stuck under his arm and the Cauman authorities will see sense and realise Clive never consented to their laws 🙄

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 00:54

Wow.

I picked up on the freeman of the land stuff in the first thread and it looks like I was right.

In terms of people trafficking, that was pondered in the first thread. The problem they had was because she hadn't given birth in hospital with a witness the authorities wouldn't register the birth and without a DNA test the baby couldn't get a British passport, which Clive had a meltdown over. If I recall correctly, a couple of people wondered if the baby wasn't really theirs at the time.

So to speculate about why they are still swanning off around the Caribbean and have just been arrested I have the following theory:

Clive, being a Freeman of the Land had a hissy fit over having to do a DNA test. Remember the baby would only qualify for a British passport if it was his baby because Iullia isn't a British Citizen. Clive thought doing a DNA test was the state doing something repressive because he's a mental conspiracy theorist.

This the baby possibly wasn't ever registered and doesn't have a passport and has been stranded in the Caribbean ever since.

They've been hoping islands and crossing borders (again) without regard to the legalities of this. And someone in the authorities seeing them behave strangely in some way. (It's Clive. Somehow I don't think he hides under the radar). So they decided to investigate.

And the come across an undocumented baby. So what are they going to do? Our course hold them with they invest further. Clive, being Clive is probably still refusing to do a DNA test even whilst detained. Iullia being a bit wet and dominated by Clive just follows what he says to do.

No doubt a gofund me sod story is due to surface soon.

Which brings me back to the point about how are they actually affording to live in the Carribbean with no income.

It serves Clive to spin a tortured soul routine for his latest grift.

But yeah the original thread was epic. It would for be very easy to believe that the authorities in the Caribbean don't understand why some British Wally won't do a test to make the problem disappear. They have little comprehension over why anyone would behave like Clive.

The other thought is that Clive has been doing something no good to continue to keep Iullia and the baby and their lifestyle - people snuggling between islands wouldnt be a strange career choice for this nutter.

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 07:22

taxnotme · 01/08/2024 01:42

Customs and Border Control Director Charles Clifford has confirmed that all five individuals who arrived on Cayman Brac yesterday aboard an undeclared sailing vessel are currently in the custody of his officers. Appearing on Radio Cayman on Wednesday, Clifford said the five people, including a baby girl, appear to be from different countries and CBC officers are currently trying to determine and verify their nationalities.

The vessel arrived in Cayman Brac waters without prior clearance or the submission of the required manifesto and moored around 150 feet offshore on the northwest coast of Cayman Brac near Scotts Dock

And

Alongside customs and police officers, the Department of Children and Family Services is also involved due to the presence of an infant.

Trying to verify their nationalities. Well that would be simple if everyone on the boat had a passport. So I think we have established that not everyone on the boat had a passport. Which would fit with Clive having done a runner rather than do a DNA test and sorted his 'daughter' a British passport.

Like they did previously they've crossed an international border, but not done so properly in line with required entry requirements. If you remember correctly Clive had a bit of a meltdown at this concept before as if he believed that there weren't such a thing in the Caribbean and how awful it was that he was being discriminated against about it.

I also note that now he has a second child, involved with social services. This child may or may not be his. And may or may not be effectively stateless at this point because no one can establish her identity or nationality because it doesn't sound like the documentation of those on board is in order.

Oh dear.

Best case scenario here is they aren't done for people trafficking and the government just tries to deport them. Best case.

I suspect Clive possibly can't get Iullia back into the UK at this point. She's Ukrainian. If she's not returned to the UK since the baby was born it's likely her visa status is now potentially void. She was in the UK pre war I believe and the whole reason Clive had to do a DNA test was because she wasnt a British Citizen. And the war related visa scheme for family has now ended. The homes for Ukraine is still running but if they are married she may not be eligible if Clive requests the visa. She would then have to apply for entry as his partner. That would require him being able to show he earned over a certain threshold. So I think she's potentially pretty fucked. If his older child has been taken into care, he's unlikely to be approved anyway as a suitable sponsor.

The foreign office must be despairing of Clive. When the call comes through and someone in the office goes 'oh god it's Clive again' everyone must know who they are talking about. His file must be huge. They aren't going to give a recommendation to be supportive of Iullia. Is it in the best interests of their older daughter for Iullia to return to the UK? Well they've abandoned the older daughter and I doubt they are likely to regain custody, so it's probably going to be irrelevant.

Even if Clive does now do a DNA test and the baby is proven to be his, what happens? If the baby is British and Ukrainian then there's two options - but if the Cayman authorities decide this pair are unsuitable parents (phonecall to the British Authorities which demonstrates that the older child is in care will sort that) then the decision is likely to be taken away from Clive and Iullia. No DNA test and the baby goes to Ukraine (except it can't). DNA test and the baby goes into care in the UK. If Clive is non cooperative I don't know what they do. Potentially because the older daughter is in care they can establish if she has a full sister because consent isn't required from parents but from carers/state. If they can't determine the baby is British, the baby is likely to go into care in the Caymans following discussions with the British.

At this stage is that the Caymans probably can't deport Iullia to Ukraine for obvious reasons. I doubt the UK will except her. So she's probably stranded too. Clive is liable to ultimately be deported to the UK. Quite what happens if he has no passport to stick a big deported stamp in his passport I'm not sure. (They'd have to issue an emergency passport to get him back to the UK). Having a deportation stamp on his passport is unlikely to pass favour with any Caribbean nation. They will refuse entry if he tries to fly back to rejoin Iullia. Of course this assumes he keeps his passport. Which I suspect is now unlikely given his track record. It's not in the public interest to allow him to keep it, because Clive is a liability abroad.

There is no legal right to a passport and the Home Office can withdraw one under certain circumstances. These two paragraphs probably cover it:

a person has been repatriated from abroad at public expense and their debt has not yet been repaid. This is because the passport fee supports the provision of consular services for British citizens overseas; or
a person whose past, present or proposed activities, actual or suspected, are believed by the Home Secretary to be so undesirable that the grant or continued enjoyment of passport facilities is contrary to the public interest.

Clive isn't going to repay his repatriation fees now is he? And even if he does the Home Office would be nuts to not withdraw it, because it's just a matter of time before he is refused entry/deported/requires consular services elsewhere. They definitely don't want a Clive running around Ukraine do they?

So even if Iullia makes it back to Ukraine, Clive probably can't join her there because he can't get there.

They are f-u-c-k-e-d.

So Clive and Iullia are going to lose everything and everyone. No doubt Clive will have a conspiracy theory meltdown over it. And blame everyone but himself. I guess he will be back to the streets of Yorkshire to grift soon enough. Clive should definitely sell his story to the Daily Mail though as his response will be entertaining and I'm sure everyone here would like to see it.

It's actually a really said story though. But neither adult can blame anyone but themselves. The fact they have no regards for international law and how it applies to them is shocking.

I almost feel sorry for them both. Almost. The way they have carried on with out thought to their responsibilities to their children is awful.

Please MNetters keep us updated with the outcome of the saga of Clive and Iullia.

artandtalk · 01/08/2024 08:30

@RedToothBrush Your powers of analysis and summary are genuinely genius. How can we deploy you to sort out the world in real life?

Peridot1 · 01/08/2024 08:48

Clive sounds totally idiotic.

The poor kids. Neither of them asked to be born into this farce.

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 08:51

One thing I hadn't considered. The Caymans are a British Overseas Territory which further complicates things (I find it funny that they've been caught out on what's effectively a British Controlled border. They actually stopped the boat!).

So it's under direct rule from London albeit with some degrees of autonomy for self governance.

It has it's own coastguard but it's ultimately under the jurisdiction of the British Crown.

The Caymans therefore don't have their own foreign relations due to being an overseas territory to add to the confusion. It's all down to London.

So the Caymans have to talk to London who can liaise with Ukraine and the country from which she's come from accused of people smuggling and the Ethiopian government. What a headache. It'll keep a few people busy that's for sure.

I guess that also means Clive doesn't get consulate support this time too because he's in a foreign place but still under the crown and they don't have foreign relations and therefore no need for an embassy.

(Yeah I'm not really following this either).

This has created a right mess for the Caymans and the UK government. Iullias status in the UK is likely expired. And in being refused entry to the Cayman you'd normally just pass responsibility to the country she was in previously or deport to home nation. Since deportation to home nation isn't possible, where does that leave her? The neighbouring country won't want her. The British government won't want her returned to the UK for fear of absconding. And the Caymans won't want her citing that it's a British problem rather than theirs.

Yeah, Clive's not getting his passport back. This is going to cost the UK government a fortune to resolve in beaucratic ranglings. It's not in the public interest to allow Clive to travel abroad again. He's too much of a liability.

It's back to sunny Tameside for the rest of his life for Clive pending whether he serves time in a Cayman jail in the interim (sorry I said Yorkshire above. That was incorrect)

MadeOfAllWork · 01/08/2024 12:32

Thank you @RedToothBrush for all that.

It will look very dodgy from the point of view of the Cayman authorities. A British man, a Ukrainian woman, possibly both with no documentation. Two Ethiopians who seem to have no relation to the couple. Most worrying though is a completely undocumented baby. The couple claim the baby is theirs but they have no proof!

sunglassesonthetable · 01/08/2024 12:38

And you can pretty much put money that this little undocumented child has not a single childhood vaccination whilst traipsing around the world.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/08/2024 12:41

Only read the last page

This is mad.

If the baby is Clive's, why on earth wouldn't he just do a DNA test?

MadeOfAllWork · 01/08/2024 12:48

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/08/2024 12:41

Only read the last page

This is mad.

If the baby is Clive's, why on earth wouldn't he just do a DNA test?

Because Clive is a Freeman of the Land flavour bellend who will no doubt think that ‘they’ will take his DNA and use it for untold things.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/08/2024 12:56

MadeOfAllWork · 01/08/2024 12:48

Because Clive is a Freeman of the Land flavour bellend who will no doubt think that ‘they’ will take his DNA and use it for untold things.

And that's more important than getting his family safely reunited in the UK, is it?

MadeOfAllWork · 01/08/2024 13:07

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/08/2024 12:56

And that's more important than getting his family safely reunited in the UK, is it?

Seems that way. He’s been happy to let his wife have a baby with no medical attention just to prove a point.

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 14:41

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 01/08/2024 12:56

And that's more important than getting his family safely reunited in the UK, is it?

Read the whole sorry saga.

Clive only cares about Clive's beliefs. He does not care about his family.

Clive abandoned his 8 year old daughter in the UK, to accompany his wife to give birth with no medical attention in the Carribean, then didn't register the baby, then complained that he had border hoped and the authorities didn't like it but he thought he should be allowed to. Then Clive through a wobbler about a require for a DNA test. And went to the press. He has three names he goes by. He's been in various disputes with the local authority back in the uk. After he got back to the UK and found his daughter has been taken into care because he abandoned her he through a wobbler.

Now Clive turned up again. Crossing an international border incorrectly with a couple of Ethopians in tow. Clive is not the sharpest tool in the drawer but he makes his own mess and seems to drag everyone else down with him because he's into conspiracy theories.

If Clive was a character in a book, the critics would call it unrealistic.

HonoriaLucastaDelagardie · 01/08/2024 15:03

Last year, people were wondering where the yacht came from and how they were paying for it. So is people smuggling the answer?

Ethiopians is as bizarre as the rest of the story. How do two Ethiopians end up being trafficked in the Caribbean?

At least the authorities presumably now will be able to confirm Louisa's parentage and issue her with appropriate documentation.

FiftynFooked · 01/08/2024 15:16

I'd never heard of this story before but am hooked! What's all the gubbins with the signs in court?! And the reference to some obscure legislation? Is he trying to argue that he should be declared dead?!!!

MadeOfAllWork · 01/08/2024 15:19

Genuine question - if these Ethiopian people are there willingly is it still trafficking? In my mind people trafficking happens against someone’s will.

MadeOfAllWork · 01/08/2024 15:21

FiftynFooked · 01/08/2024 15:16

I'd never heard of this story before but am hooked! What's all the gubbins with the signs in court?! And the reference to some obscure legislation? Is he trying to argue that he should be declared dead?!!!

Look into freeman of the land. They are some crazy conspiracy bunch who believe that something to do with the Magna Carta means that if they don’t consent to their name being used they can’t be tried by a court, or some shit.

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 15:21

FiftynFooked · 01/08/2024 15:16

I'd never heard of this story before but am hooked! What's all the gubbins with the signs in court?! And the reference to some obscure legislation? Is he trying to argue that he should be declared dead?!!!

Freeman of the Land nonsense. Read the previous thread. Yeah it gets weird.

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2024 15:25

MadeOfAllWork · 01/08/2024 15:19

Genuine question - if these Ethiopian people are there willingly is it still trafficking? In my mind people trafficking happens against someone’s will.

The authorities were looking to establish how they were being treated.

But in terms of people trafficking, you also have the dynamic of someone taking people over an international border illegally.

The comparison is someone taking someone from North Africa to Italy with their consent but bypassing immigration. Or someone taking illegal migrants across the channel without documentation.

So the authorities will have to establish the motivations of the two Ethiopians too.

Did they intend to go to the Caymans to work illegally? Or was Clive just feckless about entry requirements.

Clive had previously said he had borrowed a boat from a friend and that's where he and Iullia had been living. So I'd be wondering who the boat belonged to too.

ButtSurgery · 01/08/2024 15:27

https://caymanmarlroad.com/2024/07/31/brits-accused-of-human-trafficking/

Yep, this article refers to the initial "controversy" too.