To wonder who left wing Jews should vote for?

[LemonyTicket]

I had this chat with my adult kids tonight as as left wing Jews, we've got no idea who we will vote for.

We don't really agree with Tory economic ideas, we believe in equitable distribution of resources. We appreciate Tories are generally supportive of Jews, but find they're hostile to other minorities. Maybe I could bring myself to vote Tory if there was a milder option, like John Major, but I don't think I could vote for this lot.

We think the left is in the thralls of an antisemitic nervous breakdown to a point of being a very uncomfortable, so that's a deal breaker for us. And while we're extremely socially liberal, we think the stuff has gone a bit far and basic common sense has left the building.

Who will you be voting for?

My husband is Jewish and had had the same dilemma over the last few years. He was a Labour voter and Labour Party member but left as he couldn’t stomach the anti semitism, or Jeremy Corbin.

He will likely vote Labour in the next election. While Starmer is less than inspiring, he can’t possibly do a worse job than the Tories have done.

The area we live is traditionally Tory but at the last election it was pretty close so there’s at least a chance of his vote making a difference. Also, In the redrawn parliamentary constituencies, the Labour MP is the same one as where we used to live and she was absolutely brilliant.

Lib Dems?

Labour definitely. I don’t like Keir Starmer but he is certainly better than continuing with the Tory government. I think the claims in the right-wing press that Labour are more antisemitic than the Tories are absolute nonsense. The current government treat immigrants with absolute disdain. I dread to think how the current lot would have behaved towards Jewish refugees in the 30s and 40s.

This is exactly it. They're supportive of Jews, but the treatment of refugees echoes the 1930s for me and I can't support that.

I feel Starmer isn't much different.

Lib dems maybe- they seem to have disappeared.

Greens maybe, I like their policies, but they're also attracting a lot of the antisemites who left Labour.

Isn't it amazing the number of people who are expected to vote Labour, for the greater good - against their self interest?

I'm not Jewish, I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, I just don't think you have a duty to fall on your sword.

I feel Starmer isn't much different.

May I ask to whom and about what? Thanks.

Lib Dems or Green for me.

I refuse to vote Labour again and the Tories will never be an option for me.

I'm not Jewish so won't tell you who to vote for either, but KS seems to be really trying to drive the anti Srmites out of the party. His wife and children are Jewish I think. They are certainly Jewish descent. There are unpleasant extremists in both parties, but Labour at the moment seem to be more willing to stamp down on theirs than the Tories, who put them in the Cabinet.

I was certain I was going to vote Labour but now I’m wavering (I’m not Jewish), I’ve gone right off Starmer the last 12 months really. I will probably vote Lib Dem.

Sure.

A lot of the policies I dislike most in the Tory party, Starmer supports also.

A lot of the negative attitudes to refugees, he also reflects.

I am not naive, I understand the situation is out of control, but there needs to be compassion for refugees tempered with managing the situation practically and addressing the root causes.

What I see now is mostly both sides pandering to bigoted people, and that - to me - is a reflection of what my family faced in the 1930s.

I believe the refugee convention was set up in another time, when the problems faced today did not exist, and things have changed.

There needs to be an international effort to find solutions to making people's home countries safe again for them, which (believe me) is what people really want.

At the last check, 42% of applicants were nationals of Middle Eastern countries, and 23% were nationals of African countries. The vast majority of these people were fleeing extremist regimes - on grounds of persecution of their human rights.

I am left wing, but people need to accept that people do not live safely in many of these countries because of extremist religious rule that by nature persecutes people. Those groups need to be stopped.

It is not about poverty or war - that happens all over the world and people are still able to live in their own countries. This happens because these societies persecute their own.

There needs to be a global effort to introduce a framework of international human rights, because - whilst taking in Jews during the Holocaust was wonderful - it was not a permanent, ongoing thing. It was one temporary crisis. And Jews are a tiny portion of the world.

I'd like to see politicians having the balls to say "in these countries, women, homesexuals, political activists and so on are persecuted and they are needing to flee their homes in droves" and actually addressing that in different ways - with the help of local people.

We can't continue like this indefinitely. People's homes must be made safe for them. It's 2023. Human rights should be universal now.

Isn't it amazing the number of people who are expected to vote Tory, for the greater good - against their self interest?

That is true in a way - but I have felt a lot like the way he has done it has been disingenuous. I can't really put my finger on it, but he always seems like a child trying to blame his sister.

The truth is that the left has been troubled by antisemitism for a long time, and it's a bit pathetic to try and blame one man for it.

I would have been a lot more impressed by Starmer if he had spent his time and effort on educating the left on antisemitism, explaining it, rather than using it as a toy to attack his opponent.

i know it just made out family very uncomfortable!

Cute, but I can't see anyone being told they have a moral obligation to vote Tory.

The Forde report really was quite damning in proving that Corbyn wasn’t an anti semite, it was a political tactic within the party (purposefully made worse by the media) to stop him from gaining popularity. It was a tactic to stall his campaign.

It’s disappointing that people still believe this lie.

This is an insightful post and much of it I’ve thought about and agree with. I’m not sure how much we can change the issues. They are so deeply engrained, and western values are not always welcomed.

In a way that was tried but the US in particular retracted in some ways

It’s a deep topic which I probably can’t do justice to atm as mind not fully in gear but I’d like to listen to political analysis and views that might address such a big issue

I have read the Forde report several times.

It didn't "prove Corbyn wasn't an antisemite". You can't prove that! I have no idea if he is or isn't - he hasn't said or done anything that makes me feel he is. I do feel the following is certainly true:

• He is extremely naive when it comes to foreign policy and he seems to equate jihadi groups with freedom fighters. He has no understanding of reality when it comes to this.

• He attracted the Marxist, extreme left, and they are absolutely infested with antisemitism and deeply antisemitic world views of which they are in complete denial.

What the Forde report essentially said was that racism, sexism in general was rife in the Labour party and had been for a very long time. And that they had completely inadequate systems for tackling it. I don't blame one person for that.

It also said that the very serious, very real issue of rife antisemitism amongst the left was used as a toy in a political game to beat the other side. Which disgusts me. Hence I won't vote for Starmer.

The end result of the way it was handled is that all those who were part of the antisemitism, are now none the wiser. They have continued - even hugely escalated and it's a shame Labour didn't address it in a very different way.

I didn't see at the time what banning people did to help the problem. I think in terms of antisemitism there are certain people who are beyond help. They have deep hatred running through their veins and any attempt at education would be interpreted as punishment. Forget those guys - they don't belong in any political party.

The larger group though is simply uneducated people who don't understand the complex history of the region or of Jewish people, and who do not understand the unique nature of antisemitism. I think a great deal of those could, and still can, be educated to see where they are going wrong.

For me voting is always a lesser of two evils. I’d never waste my vote, too many women suffered and fought for me to have it, but I find myself on election day standing there wondering what’s the point as none of them are who I want running the country, so it’s very much which is going to cause the most damage in the next 4 years and my vote goes to the other party.

This is difficult. Coming from a mixed Jewish/Catholic ( albeit lapsed ) background. There is a lot of talk about the left being anti semitic but not in my experience. What is considered to be anti semitic eg in the Labour Party under Corbyn is in the main and increasingly anti Israeli Government policies. This criticism of the politics of the Israeli Government exists of course both in Israel and in the wider Jewish Diaspora in the US, UK, Europe. The political position of My Country right or wrong is not a principled position surely.

The Labour Party ( including Corbyn over 40 + years) has a long background of defending Jews against anti semitism. Not to mention having many Jewish members,Jewish Councillors , MPs and a Jewish leader in the recent past. I have never met a single anti semitic Labour Party member in the last 60 years.

Unfortunately there are at present only 2 realistic players in the game as we have a 2 party system. Conservative or Labour.

Either you vote Conservative ( continuation of the same ), or you vote Lib Dem ( who will support the Conservatives if the crunch comes if past experience is anything to go by) or Labour, or Green ( who will split the left vote.) I don't mind Reform splitting the right wing vote btw.

I think it is a question of an overall judgement - there are certainly weak points in the current Labour plans but the Conservative plans are worse to judge by their current activity.

I guess I'm in a similar position as the French left who voted for right wing Macron to prevent something worse happening ( Neo fascist Le Pen). Ideally we would have a system of proportionate representation.

@VashtaNerada with all respect. Do you think that the worry is that some of these immigrants could be or turn into terrorists? Do you think what happened in Brussels last night is not concerning enough to try to stop this type of inmigration. I can see the immigration from the 30s was very different.

What an interesting thread. I find it very helpful to read the views of minority groups.

Placemarking. This is incredibly thought provoking.

Am I the only Mumsnetter who reads manifestos and decides at election time?

The Left hate Starmer more than they hate the Tories, so I can't imagine they would have taken a lesson from him on anything. Let alone anti semitism

To add I can absolutely understand the view of the right wing Israeli Government that only their tight control of the Country will give Jews security. After all the German Jews were very assimilated into German culture etc and it didn't prevent the Holocaust.

But I think they are wrong. Attacking the Palestinians's settlements etc will only create more tension and aggression, We have to get the various parties together to discuss a more positive way forward.

If Blair et al could find a way forward in Northern Ireland after 900 years of aggression there must be hope here too.