To wonder who left wing Jews should vote for?

[LemonyTicket]

I had this chat with my adult kids tonight as as left wing Jews, we've got no idea who we will vote for.

We don't really agree with Tory economic ideas, we believe in equitable distribution of resources. We appreciate Tories are generally supportive of Jews, but find they're hostile to other minorities. Maybe I could bring myself to vote Tory if there was a milder option, like John Major, but I don't think I could vote for this lot.

We think the left is in the thralls of an antisemitic nervous breakdown to a point of being a very uncomfortable, so that's a deal breaker for us. And while we're extremely socially liberal, we think the stuff has gone a bit far and basic common sense has left the building.

Who will you be voting for?

Gosh, I agree I want Keir Starmer to come across with a bit more oomph but I'm astonished to hear people thinking that he's not taken a different tack from Corbyn and been zero tolerance on anti-semitism, or that he isn't worlds away from the incompetence and self-interest of the Conservative party.

I think I'm a natural Lib Dem voter. Ed Davet strikes me as very decent. But I will vote tactically if necessary to avoid a Tory majority or hung parliament.

Btw op you are one of the very few posts on mn that mention international post war structures, their purpose and the problems we face

For that I am grateful, it will become a bigger issue and there’s little considered conversation

Yes @LemonyTicket I always find your posts very informative and interesting

Very interesting thread OP, I'm place marking and reading with interest.

Difficult one OP. I believe that Starmer has taken a real hardline on anti-Semitism and he should be praised for that. But I have 2 issues with going to Starmer and Labour. Firstly, for all the good messaging, Starmer did all he could to get Corbyn into number 10 only 4 years ago, in full knowledge of his naivety and the views of his acolytes. Secondly, the Labour front bench are much more sane these days, but there still seems to be an influence from the extreme left, and I'm worried about the Nadia Whitmore's and Zara Sultana's edging towards influence and power.

I suppose all you can do is study the manifesto and decide who would be the best/least bad.

Not sure what more Starmer could have done . He doesn't have unlimited powers over the Labour party and it's members. If you want to get rid of members, you need evidence to prove they have done something in breach of party rules. It is not quick or easy.

If you ask the Corbynistas, they will complain all the left wing have been purged from the party

Some people believe all the left wing/stop the war type people are still in the party and some people believe they have all been kicked out of the party.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

No party meets every one your policy goals and wishes. What is most important to you and who comes closest? Will they govern with good ethics (not VIP lanes for their mate's companies) and competently?

Seem to have been a lot of Keir bashing posts recently. CCHQ getting scared?

Labour seem to be very keen on supporting Israel this week as far as I can see.

This labour party are not anti-semitic op.

Turkeys voting for Christmas / Hanukkah 🦃

@Everanewbie I agree to an extent but I don't feel any hostility toward Nadia Whittome. I think she's been wrong on occasion, but generally find her very fair and decent. Can't say the same for Sultana sadly, who in my view is happy to rub shoulders with antisemites and really couldn't give a fuck about British Jews.

I also don't like how Starmer's seemingly one-sided the official Labour Party response to the current situation - I think he's wrong but also he's just effectively strengthening animosity towards British Jews from certain sections of the left. I'd like to see more compassion from him toward Gazan civilians.

Not Jewish, but Labour's history of antisemitism along with their views on women are enough to put me off of voting for them.

Are you suggesting the op is CCHQ?

Can you not imagine a Jewish poster might have a difficult decision to make

Your party loyalty to Labour is making you minimise concerns and means you are trying to shut down discussion

I wouldn't have voted Labour under corbyn, no way. But Starmer has really worked to tackle anti-semitism.
Personally, I vote lib dem because of their unequivocal stance on europe but I would consider Labour now.

This specific poster? No. Posts are far too detailed and well thought out to be CCHQ.

Some of the other recent ones - the I don't like Keir because of his hair/way he speaks/Jimmy Saville/his name sounds posh. Then yes, I think there is some astroturfing for Tory activists going on on here (and places like NextDoor or other communities).

But also - disagreeing mildly about whether Keir has done enough on anti semitism or whether there is more that could be done is not "shutting down discussion". This a public forum - the only people who can shut down a discussion are the moderators.

Expressing a slightly different perspective from someone else is not preventing anyone else from having a different view to me or sharing it in the thread.

In the early 1950s when we agreed on the Refugee Convention, it was a response to the Holocaust and "human rights" weren't really a thing yet - they hadn't really been invented.

Now the situation we have is that in parts of the world, there are no human rights, and citizens are persecuted by their own government in a wide variety of ways - which draws many of their citizens to want to live "in the West" for their own safety, and also in order to build free a prosperous lives.

This is a very big difference from the picture in 1951 when the refugee convention was signed. I just think the world needs to sit down and discuss this, because I think that in 2023 people should be able to live free from persecution in their homeland - and that we do not do enough to tackle these issues around the world

and "human rights" weren't really a thing yet - they hadn't really been invented.

Somewhere, the authors of the Bill(s) of Rights are quietly weeping.

Suggesting op is CCHQ is attempting to shut down discussion.

I see you’ve rowed back from that even though you asked it directly on this thread not hair, voice threads

Why mention it here if you didn’t mean the op? In any case I’m glad you have backtracked. Good.

I'm also Jewish and will vote Labour. We already have a good Labour constituency MP and the country needs a fresh Government as Tories have run out of ideas.

I think though that they hate him because of how he behaved.

I think what would have been the correct way to go about things would have been to have taken over and been honest.

He should have said "look, let's face it, the media furore over antisemitism has been exploited to keep Corbyn out of office. Let's be honest, racism is a problem through British society and Labour is certainly no worse on that front than the Tory party. However, there is a serious problem with left wing antisemitism which hasn't been invented - so let's talk about that, let's learn to identify antisemitism, let's learn what Jewish people were experiencing and let's nip this in the bud".

Instead, he used it as a hammer to get rid of anyone left leaning and people aren't stupid and saw right through it.

I actually think he made antisemitism WORSE

Typical lefty, saying the Tories have run out of ideas. They have plenty of ideas. More than you have.

Admittedly they are exclusively around how they can squeeze more money out of the system to line their own and their mates pockets. But you can't say they haven't got ideas.

"look, let's face it, the media furore over antisemitism has been exploited to keep Corbyn out of office. Let's be honest, racism is a problem through British society and Labour is certainly no worse on that front than the Tory party. However, there is a serious problem with left wing antisemitism which hasn't been invented - so let's talk about that, let's learn to identify antisemitism, let's learn what Jewish people were experiencing and let's nip this in the bud".

@LemonyTicket Absolutely. To say that should not have been so hard for an otherwise intelligent man.

Given Starmer’s wife and kids are Jewish I would have thought Labour are your safest bet.

SerendipityJane typical lefty? You have no idea who I have voted for in the past so wash your mouth out! I take it you're a typical Right Winger then.

Sorry, you know what I mean - the modern application of universal human rights, the genocide convention, the rights of refugees and the various human rights organisations didn't really exist before the holocaust.

What happened on the other side of the world wasn't really considered our business.

Yes. I never really understood his approach.

Great -ban them from the labour party.

Hasn't actually solved the problem because they still exist everywhere in my daily life!

So it came off to me as political game playing rather than taking on the very real responsibility to tackle the growing issue of left wing antisemitsm.

So to me, he failed in this, exploited our plight for his own power and on that basis I would not vote for him.

I agree on the post war system but from a slightly different perspective. It will be strained more in the coming decades.

I see your approach, but I think we’re up against it generally atm and the West is keeping its own head together, and citizens. So much threat.

I think we’ll see it go in the opposite direction