Page 5 | To wonder who left wing Jews should vote for?

LemonyTicket · 2023-10-17T01:38:50+00:00

I had this chat with my adult kids tonight as as left wing Jews, we've got no idea who we will vote for. We don't really agree with Tory economic ideas, we believe in equitable distribution of resources. We appreciate Tories are generally supportive of Jews, but find they're hostile to other minorities. Maybe I could bring myself to vote Tory if there was a milder option, like John Major, but I don't think I could vote for this lot. We think the left is in the thralls of an antisemitic nervous breakdown to a point of being a very uncomfortable, so that's a deal breaker for us. And while we're extremely socially liberal, we think the stuff has gone a bit far and basic common sense has left the building. Who will you be voting for?

Original poster

LemonyTicket · 17/10/2023 23:12

JustAMinutePleass · 17/10/2023 22:21

I’m Hindu and have a similar dilemma. Wherever anti-semetism exists anti-hindu feeling is worse. Labour is absolutely disgusting about this - you can’t go into a party conference without someone making a disgusting remark. For all that the Tories are full of rich Hindu origin MPs - they don’t really represent me. Rishi Sunak comes from an unbelievably rich family even before the links to the India (don’t believe the rumours about him being ‘working class’ - their family wealth was spread across multiple people and his Mum’s family are incredibly well off). Priti Patel and Suella Braverman are traitors. The less said about Alok Sharma the better.

I might go Green or Lib Dem this election but need more info

This is interesting - why do you think that is?

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Scatterbrainbox · 17/10/2023 23:14

LemonyTicket · 17/10/2023 22:59

Marxist ideology is infected with Russian antisemitic propaganda, painting "zionists" as representative of all world evil - colonialism, hidden networks of Jews controlling governments, a state within a state, conspiracy theory. Almost every hard left person I have met is completely infected by it. Which is a shame because they have some good ideas too.

Moreover though, very left wing people see the world as they want it to be and rarely like it is. They can't allow for the reality that not every brown person is nice. Not every poor person is nice. Not every leader of a developing nation wants equality or justice.

Some people don't want those ideals at all, and left wing people always want to believe they would or could if they just had a bit of help. It's not really true. Although it's probably a nice dream. The world is full of people who see things in all sorts of different ways and right wing people tend to be better at seeing it.

I am saying all that as someone who is very left wing, but who also accepts things like: Hamas don't want peace and justice. They want to kill Jews and ensure Islamic dominance. That is where the left stumble - in seeing the cold hard truth of some things.

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I agree about the idealist outlook. Although I still choose idealism over prejudice.
I am very uncomfortable with the example given being about Hamas(who are abhorrent btw) as though left wingers routinely support them (not something I have come across either), the fact that I disapprove of the actions Israeli government doesn't mean I support Hamas and I am sure that is a widely held sentiment. I have massive frustration with both parties and my main concern is for the civilians caught up in it either way.
I think the right stumble at times in assuming that people wanting to find a peaceful way forward are pathetically naive, I know we can't have a perfect situation but we can strive for a better one than there is at present (in situations around the world).

Original poster

LemonyTicket · 17/10/2023 23:15

Maireas · 17/10/2023 22:26

Well, @Scatterbrainbox , you'd need to look into the activities of Corbyn and read the Forde report. I've always been a Labour supporter, but do wonder why we've never had a woman leader, or a person of colour. Look at how diverse the conservatives are - what's going wrong?

Remember Lee Anderson was a Labour councillor!

I think both parties are brimming with bigotry - as is the entire country.

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hopeforchange · 17/10/2023 23:15

ElizaMulvil · 17/10/2023 15:06

This is difficult. Coming from a mixed Jewish/Catholic ( albeit lapsed ) background. There is a lot of talk about the left being anti semitic but not in my experience. What is considered to be anti semitic eg in the Labour Party under Corbyn is in the main and increasingly anti Israeli Government policies. This criticism of the politics of the Israeli Government exists of course both in Israel and in the wider Jewish Diaspora in the US, UK, Europe. The political position of My Country right or wrong is not a principled position surely.

The Labour Party ( including Corbyn over 40 + years) has a long background of defending Jews against anti semitism. Not to mention having many Jewish members,Jewish Councillors , MPs and a Jewish leader in the recent past. I have never met a single anti semitic Labour Party member in the last 60 years.

Unfortunately there are at present only 2 realistic players in the game as we have a 2 party system. Conservative or Labour.

Either you vote Conservative ( continuation of the same ), or you vote Lib Dem ( who will support the Conservatives if the crunch comes if past experience is anything to go by) or Labour, or Green ( who will split the left vote.) I don't mind Reform splitting the right wing vote btw.

I think it is a question of an overall judgement - there are certainly weak points in the current Labour plans but the Conservative plans are worse to judge by their current activity.

I guess I'm in a similar position as the French left who voted for right wing Macron to prevent something worse happening ( Neo fascist Le Pen). Ideally we would have a system of proportionate representation.

Thank you for this. It is also my experience of the Labour Party over the last 40 years. I agree with your analysis of voting intention to and also about proportional representation.

Scatterbrainbox · 17/10/2023 23:17

hopeforchange · 17/10/2023 23:15

Thank you for this. It is also my experience of the Labour Party over the last 40 years. I agree with your analysis of voting intention to and also about proportional representation.

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Completely agree that PR would be a much more equitable and fair way of doing things.

JustTheOne11 · 17/10/2023 23:17

Scatterbrainbox · 17/10/2023 23:02

Once people start saying things like 'he's just too stupid...' I switch off an don't expect to hear a balanced or researched view.
Totally different to the pp who is talking about the Forde report, their own experiences etc.
But I won't be convinced that anti Zionist and anti semitic are the same thing.
I have actually pulled up the Forde report as I am very interested in some of the points posters have raised.
My friends/family/ people I know through the labour party are from a diverse range of backgrounds. DH is of Sri Lankan heritage (family are Catholic but he's not particularly religious), kids mixed race, friends from a range of economic/religious/cultural backgrounds. All would identify as supporting equal rights in every sense. We do all work predominantly public sector... NHS, social care, teaching... In services that have been decimated by Tory policy and resulting in catastrophic effects for some of the people we work with. And this is probably quite typical regionally in terms of the number of people employed in public sector or disproportionately affected by Tory policy. So Tory is practically a swear word to us.
So I think that despite the issues raised up thread about lack of diversity at the top of the labour party are a big issue , it's just that there are probably other issues that have drowned that out for us.
I do feel that there is more hate directed at labour politicians from minority backgrounds...look at the treatment of Diane Abbot, David Lammy. And Angela Rayner for the crime of being working class. I don't think I have seen that directed at Tory politicians from minority backgrounds in the same way (hatred for their policies...Suella Braverman for e.g., but not their background).

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This is about antisemitism, quite a distinct form of racism. Look it up

Scatterbrainbox · 17/10/2023 23:22

JustTheOne11 · 17/10/2023 23:17

This is about antisemitism, quite a distinct form of racism. Look it up

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My point was that my personal experience of the left wing is that they abhor all forms of racism and I accepted that this might be because of the effects of careers choices/regional dynamics/issues that affect us most prominently too. It's ok to widen the conversation so that people understand each others experiences. Otherwise we just shout into an echo chamber which is not going to improve anything for anyone.

Original poster

LemonyTicket · 17/10/2023 23:23

Scatterbrainbox · 17/10/2023 23:14

I agree about the idealist outlook. Although I still choose idealism over prejudice.
I am very uncomfortable with the example given being about Hamas(who are abhorrent btw) as though left wingers routinely support them (not something I have come across either), the fact that I disapprove of the actions Israeli government doesn't mean I support Hamas and I am sure that is a widely held sentiment. I have massive frustration with both parties and my main concern is for the civilians caught up in it either way.
I think the right stumble at times in assuming that people wanting to find a peaceful way forward are pathetically naive, I know we can't have a perfect situation but we can strive for a better one than there is at present (in situations around the world).

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I don't think they support them.

I think they romanticise them.

I think it's hard to accept what they actually want is quite far from the equal rights, liberty, life and freedom of the average western lefties imagination

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Scatterbrainbox · 17/10/2023 23:25

LemonyTicket · 17/10/2023 23:23

I don't think they support them.

I think they romanticise them.

I think it's hard to accept what they actually want is quite far from the equal rights, liberty, life and freedom of the average western lefties imagination

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I don't know anyone who sees Hamas in any positive light at all to be fair, but I accept that is anecdotal.
You do use very emotive language 'average western leftie's imagination'. It really undermines you when you might be making a valid point. It's very dismissive of anyone who isn't exactly the same as you...that their opinion must be the product of a fanciful imagination. It's quite arrogant.

JustTheOne11 · 17/10/2023 23:29

Scatterbrainbox · 17/10/2023 23:22

My point was that my personal experience of the left wing is that they abhor all forms of racism and I accepted that this might be because of the effects of careers choices/regional dynamics/issues that affect us most prominently too. It's ok to widen the conversation so that people understand each others experiences. Otherwise we just shout into an echo chamber which is not going to improve anything for anyone.

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This is the point, they abhor all forms is just a sound byte. Corbyn’s LP indulged in antisemitism, they were found guilty. If you want to understand more about antisemitism, which as I’ve already stated is a distinct form of prejudice, I’m more than happy to help.

etmoietmoietmoi · 17/10/2023 23:30

@LemonyTicket

I thought some Jewish leaders, certainly some Rabbis, behaved badly around it.

Yes! I hardly ever hear anyone say this. I used to wince at some of them during that entire period, especially those that were pandering a bit too much to the Tories (and not just the moderates). They effectively tried to make the right look like credible and natural supporters of Jews, which is bonkers really. A certain former editor of a popular Jewish newspaper didn't cover himself in glory either in my view, but as an editor of a right leaning paper I suppose he's entitled to political bias.

From my end, the left is more antisemitic than it was before it all started

I was talking to my DH about this. He not Jewish so a different perspective obviously, but he thinks the antisemites were there all the time but I don't agree. I think repeated slogans by the far left on social media - mostly concerning Jews lying about antisemitism - whipped up so many into a tribal frenzy and encouraged them think about Jews in a way they never had before. I have never known the left to be as prejudiced about Jewish people as it is now. Social media and populism are a dangerous combination. I'm finding it terrifying if I'm being honest

Scatterbrainbox · 17/10/2023 23:31

JustTheOne11 · 17/10/2023 23:29

This is the point, they abhor all forms is just a sound byte. Corbyn’s LP indulged in antisemitism, they were found guilty. If you want to understand more about antisemitism, which as I’ve already stated is a distinct form of prejudice, I’m more than happy to help.

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I wasn't talking about the party line. I was talking about my personal experience. As I stated. Repeatedly.

jlpth · 17/10/2023 23:35

I felt that at the last election, all options were atrocious. So I didn't vote.

Maatandosiris · 17/10/2023 23:47

grumpypedestrian · 17/10/2023 14:55

The Forde report really was quite damning in proving that Corbyn wasn’t an anti semite, it was a political tactic within the party (purposefully made worse by the media) to stop him from gaining popularity. It was a tactic to stall his campaign.

It’s disappointing that people still believe this lie.

Well you only had to look at his response to the attacks in Israel to see why people still believe it.

He is an awful man and I will be forever grateful he never made it to number 10

Original poster

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 00:02

etmoietmoietmoi · 17/10/2023 23:30

@LemonyTicket

I thought some Jewish leaders, certainly some Rabbis, behaved badly around it.

Yes! I hardly ever hear anyone say this. I used to wince at some of them during that entire period, especially those that were pandering a bit too much to the Tories (and not just the moderates). They effectively tried to make the right look like credible and natural supporters of Jews, which is bonkers really. A certain former editor of a popular Jewish newspaper didn't cover himself in glory either in my view, but as an editor of a right leaning paper I suppose he's entitled to political bias.

From my end, the left is more antisemitic than it was before it all started

I was talking to my DH about this. He not Jewish so a different perspective obviously, but he thinks the antisemites were there all the time but I don't agree. I think repeated slogans by the far left on social media - mostly concerning Jews lying about antisemitism - whipped up so many into a tribal frenzy and encouraged them think about Jews in a way they never had before. I have never known the left to be as prejudiced about Jewish people as it is now. Social media and populism are a dangerous combination. I'm finding it terrifying if I'm being honest

Yes, I just felt people who would have opposed Corbyn regardless really milked the antisemitism and actually a lot of the most publicised cases didn't really expose the problem. Ultimately we ended up with a country who heard about "Labour antisemitism" day after day for years and none of them are the wiser about what that actually meant.

It was a weapon to stop a socialist getting into government, rather than the serious issue that it actually should have been. It really pissed me off to be honest. I couldn't understand why anyone wasn't actually talking about it and explaining what it meant - like we all have here. People could have learned a lot if there had been honest reporting.

Stuff like Jews saying they'd leave the UK if Corbyn was elected was painful. I mean, he wasn't planning to throw us in a ghetto, so if anything, that kind of hyperbole undermined the message and made it look like a joke. The truth was that whether he was elected or not made little material difference because my kids and your kids still have to deal with the antisemitism!

I think repeated slogans by the far left on social media - mostly concerning Jews lying about antisemitism - whipped up so many into a tribal frenzy and encouraged them think about Jews in a way they never had before

Absolutely this. And they have told themselves "it's not Jews, it's zionists" and they have a few Jews who agree with them to prove it.

I have never known the left to be as prejudiced about Jewish people as it is now. Social media and populism are a dangerous combination. I'm finding it terrifying if I'm being honest

Same here, we have all largely had to stop using it. It's reached a level of deranged fixation IMHO and this conflict will only make it worse!

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Maatandosiris · 18/10/2023 00:06

Scatterbrainbox · 17/10/2023 23:02

Once people start saying things like 'he's just too stupid...' I switch off an don't expect to hear a balanced or researched view.
Totally different to the pp who is talking about the Forde report, their own experiences etc.
But I won't be convinced that anti Zionist and anti semitic are the same thing.
I have actually pulled up the Forde report as I am very interested in some of the points posters have raised.
My friends/family/ people I know through the labour party are from a diverse range of backgrounds. DH is of Sri Lankan heritage (family are Catholic but he's not particularly religious), kids mixed race, friends from a range of economic/religious/cultural backgrounds. All would identify as supporting equal rights in every sense. We do all work predominantly public sector... NHS, social care, teaching... In services that have been decimated by Tory policy and resulting in catastrophic effects for some of the people we work with. And this is probably quite typical regionally in terms of the number of people employed in public sector or disproportionately affected by Tory policy. So Tory is practically a swear word to us.
So I think that despite the issues raised up thread about lack of diversity at the top of the labour party are a big issue , it's just that there are probably other issues that have drowned that out for us.
I do feel that there is more hate directed at labour politicians from minority backgrounds...look at the treatment of Diane Abbot, David Lammy. And Angela Rayner for the crime of being working class. I don't think I have seen that directed at Tory politicians from minority backgrounds in the same way (hatred for their policies...Suella Braverman for e.g., but not their background).

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The IHRA would probably disagree with you re the anti Zionism https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

What is antisemitism?

About the IHRA non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism The IHRA is the only intergovernmental organization mandated to focus solely on Holocaust-related issues, so with evidence that the scourge of antisemitism is once again on the rise...

https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

Boredoutmymind · 18/10/2023 00:06

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Original poster

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 00:08

@etmoietmoietmoi

What genuinely fucks me off like mad is that every single newspaper, tv station, radio show etc. for years on end did NOTHING but talk about Labour antisemitism and I frankly can't remember any of them

a) explaining what antisemitism is
b) explaining what was actually happening in the Labour party

It REALLY winds me up. In fact, four days on Mumsnet shows pretty much every left wing Jew was experiencing the same and they never told that story.

I remember they pulled out the ridiculous examples: like the woman on the Panorama things who claimed she went to work at Labour HQ and every day her colleagues told her Hitler was right and hadn't gone far enough.

I mean, obviously only an imbecile would believe that happened, so why weren't they telling the real stories?

Like the things we've been through?

It shows to me that it was a convenient weapon, and the people weaponising it cared as little about Jews as the ones doing the antisemitic things did

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Original poster

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 00:11

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Your entire post is dripping with worrying antisemitism. Why have you come to this thread?

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etmoietmoietmoi · 18/10/2023 00:11

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I mean, your whole post is infested with antisemitism but do crack on.

etmoietmoietmoi · 18/10/2023 00:18

It REALLY winds me up. In fact, four days on Mumsnet shows pretty much every left wing Jew was experiencing the same and they never told that story.

YES! @LemonyTicket

Unfortunately a PP has seen our posts as some kind of green light to go full-antisemite. Hope her post doesn't get deleted - it's fucking textbook.

keffie12 · 18/10/2023 00:21

I presume most of you don't realise that Keir Starmer wife is Jewish

www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/uk-labour-leader-starmer-opens-up-about-his-familys-jewish-traditions/amp/

etmoietmoietmoi · 18/10/2023 00:23

We need a government over haul. There should be no money given to religious organisations from public money. Everyone should be treated equally but preferences should be given to the elderly/vulnerable and disabled as that is not a choice.

So much of your post is antisemitic but let me pick up on this - people don't choose their ethnicity. I am Jewish, but I have never practised Judaism. Do schoolkids not deserve protection? Because that's where the money is going.

jewish business get away with a lot in my area and many are breaking the law. when you complain about them nothing gets done because of the jewish influence in the council. everyone knows what is happening but if you speak out about is you get told you are anti semetic.

I have no words to describe how appalling this is, but I'm copying it into this post in the hope that if your actual post gets deleted, at lease some of it will remain so that next time a poster demands that we show evidence of left wing antisemitism, your words will be right here. Absolute textbook. @Boredoutmymind

Original poster

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 00:33

etmoietmoietmoi · 18/10/2023 00:18

It REALLY winds me up. In fact, four days on Mumsnet shows pretty much every left wing Jew was experiencing the same and they never told that story.

YES! @LemonyTicket

Unfortunately a PP has seen our posts as some kind of green light to go full-antisemite. Hope her post doesn't get deleted - it's fucking textbook.

I enjoyed the full blown "Jews are lying cheats and are going to take money in order to do corrupt things with it and tell lies" rhetoric, but describing being Jewish as a "lifestyle choice" is hilarious to be fair!

Imagine being that big a complete fuck wit.

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etmoietmoietmoi · 18/10/2023 00:36

@LemonyTicket Weirdly the explicit and obvious shite like hers doesn't upset me as much as the more insidious, subtle stuff.