To wonder who left wing Jews should vote for?

[LemonyTicket]

I had this chat with my adult kids tonight as as left wing Jews, we've got no idea who we will vote for.

We don't really agree with Tory economic ideas, we believe in equitable distribution of resources. We appreciate Tories are generally supportive of Jews, but find they're hostile to other minorities. Maybe I could bring myself to vote Tory if there was a milder option, like John Major, but I don't think I could vote for this lot.

We think the left is in the thralls of an antisemitic nervous breakdown to a point of being a very uncomfortable, so that's a deal breaker for us. And while we're extremely socially liberal, we think the stuff has gone a bit far and basic common sense has left the building.

Who will you be voting for?

Genuine question, what is the link between being 'hard left' and anti-Semitic? My perception of being hard left is being against all forms of discrimination or inequality. I know there were accusations against Corbyn, but I wasn't aware of a wider perception of links between left wing politics and anti semitism...
Is it related to the Israel/Palestinian conflict or something else?

I was so sure I was going to vote labour until two weeks ago. I was so impressed and reassured by Rishi's strong line against anti semitism and I just don't feel labour are as strong on this. And that is what may be most important for me and my family at this time to make sure my children are safe at their Jewish school

It's related to perpetuating the antisemitic myth that Jews are rich (and white). The hard Left make an erroneous link with Jews and capitalism. They then identify "freedom fighters" and side with them, no matter how reprehensible.
With the result that they'd support antisemitic, misogynist, homophobic extremists rather than Jewish people.

As a left leaning member of the Jewish community, where is your ‘best fit’?

Despite my absolute exasperation with Starmer, I would say out of the 2 main parties the current Labour Party (obviously there's other options in different parts of the country).

Agree there's no perfect fit, but there's some fundamental red lines for me.

• the discrimination towards British Jews by Corbyn's Labour and his loyalists. Absolutely no way I could have voted for a party led by him despite being a member most of my life. A lot of them have defected to the Greens and although one of my main priorities is the climate agenda, I don't feel I can vote Green. While not perfect by a long shot, I believe the Labour Party have 'cleaned up'.
• the ongoing racist rhetoric directed towards immigrants by the Tories and their dismissal of minority ethnic groups' concerns as 'woke' issues. I also don't buy the argument that the Tories are 'slightly' better on antisemitism - they politically exploit it for their own agenda.

And in any case, Tory economic and social policies, particularly regarding the welfare state, have never and likely never will, align with my own beliefs. Even if there was a moderate Tory at the helm, for instance someone like Rory Stewart who actually has a conscience, the fact is their fundamental principles wildly diverge from mine.

Others obviously have different red lines but antisemitism and racism is mine and also my wider family's who are almost all on the left (in the UK and abroad). Family in France could not in good conscience support Jean-Luc Mélenchon for the Presidency yet were obviously terrified of Le Pen.

Genuine question, what is the link between being 'hard left' and anti-Semitic? My perception of being hard left is being against all forms of discrimination or inequality. I know there were accusations against Corbyn, but I wasn't aware of a wider perception of links between left wing politics and anti semitism...
Is it related to the Israel/Palestinian conflict or something else?

It's all part and parcel of the anti-imperialist world view of the far left - not specifically about the conflict but more that Jews are apparently rich (most of us aren't) and therefore part of a shadowy (((globalist))) agenda. The conflict is just the rod to bait us with, but in it's simplest terms boils down to Israel being the oppressor/imperialist state (the ones with the money!) and the Palestinians the oppressed.

and therefore part of a shadowy (((globalist))) agenda

And that's where the extreme far left meet the far right.

I assume Starmer does understand the complex history?
While Starmer is fiercely schtum about his private life – hence his reticence to publicly name his daughter – we do know that his wife, originally from Poland, is Jewish, and that the couple's children are being raised in the Jewish faith.

I don't understand why you think Starmer himself was part of the problem?

I understood most Jewish leaders were happy with the actions taken by him?

I've genuinely never heard that perception about Jewish people in relation to left wing views. I would describe myself as extremely left wing, but have never come across the idea that the wealth hoarding is linked to the Jewish community in the context of labour/left wing politics (I am aware of that stereotype being held but wasn't aware that it was linked with a particular political leaning today).
Maybe generational/regional but I have never come across that perception about Jewish people (edit: amongst fellow left wingers) in a lifetime of being a labour supporter.
The freedom fighter bit I assume does refer to the Israel/Palestine conflict. I definitely think it is a left wing outlook want to support working towards a peaceful way forward with as little loss of life as possible, however hard that might be with things escalating as they are. I desperately hope that most people would want this whatever their political or religious leanings, although with a degree of realism that this is something to work towards rather than something obtainable in the short term.

I'm surprised that you've never heard that left wing view of Jewish people. It's a known antisemitic trope, shared by the right, of course. Jews are bankers and business owners, controlling the wealth. I've seen cartoons depicting this from the far left and the right. Remember the offensive mural liked by Corbyn?

I've heard the trope about bankers, wealth etc, just never linked into left wing politics in that way.
The disgust I have always come across is aimed at the politics of Thatcher, Boris et al erosion of workers rights, lack of funding for public services, their contempt for those who haven't had their privileges. I have never heard any consideration of the Jewish community any which way in those discussions. I have always seen disgust at any discrimination or prejudice.
Is this regional? I have been actively involved in the labour party in the north west for many years.
I am really worried that the current world situation will exacerbate a whole range of prejudices against both the Jewish and Muslim communities. I know people who disapprove of both Hamas and Israel's actions in the world, but it has nothing to do with stereotypes about either country/ethnic group/religion, just a hatred of violence and of civilians being the ones to suffer whilst the powerful folk play chess with their lives.
I accept that just because I haven't come across this view that doesn't mean it's not our there, but I would worry that people not supporting Israel could be interpreted as mistaking terrorists for freedom fighters.
I hope that everyone keeps talking on these difficult times, and trying better to understand each others experience and concerns.

I know Corbyn was accused of anti semitism but I did assume that was because he did not support the actions of Israel.
Perhaps it's as much of a trope about a trope as much as anything else!

No, @Scatterbrainbox - it was far, far more than that.

That wasn't meant to sound dismissive. It's just not a view shared by anyone I know in my wide left wing circle of people I know.
I am genuinely trying to understand as I firmly believe that not supporting the Israeli government is not anti semitic, just anti that particular government but want to understand the feelings that it may run deeper than that, as it's not something I have heard discussed/debate etc.

I’m Hindu and have a similar dilemma. Wherever anti-semetism exists anti-hindu feeling is worse. Labour is absolutely disgusting about this - you can’t go into a party conference without someone making a disgusting remark. For all that the Tories are full of rich Hindu origin MPs - they don’t really represent me. Rishi Sunak comes from an unbelievably rich family even before the links to the India (don’t believe the rumours about him being ‘working class’ - their family wealth was spread across multiple people and his Mum’s family are incredibly well off). Priti Patel and Suella Braverman are traitors. The less said about Alok Sharma the better.

I might go Green or Lib Dem this election but need more info

I'm Jewish and I'll be voting Labour. They're standing a good candidate in our area, they're the only party who can beat the Tories here and while I don't think Labour really deserve to win, the Tories deserve to lose and I'm frankly quite worried what the Tories would do given another term.

They've made it quite clear they're going after human rights and I think that would mean employment rights, making us more like America, where your employer basically owns you, then it'd be maternity rights because 'businesses can't afford it and it makes us uncompetitive'. Plus I suspect we'd see the return of something like Clause 28 as part of clampdown on what's actually appropriate and necessary sex education and so on.

And frankly, as a Jew I find it deeply disturbing that the Tories have made less than 0.5% of the population into an electoral issue because a vocal minority are providing them with a convenient wedge issue around trans women. I know not everyone here agrees but I can't believe how much energy is being wasted and how much harm being done instead of anyone enacting policies that actually really help women (on all sides). Labour are being disappointingly mealy mouthed but I think if in power would not have time for this and other 'culture war' nonsense when they are in government and not on the back foot as opposition.

But another Tory administration would double down on the 'war on woke' in their continuing inability to accept what and who modern Britain is. And when the government doesn't care about supporting some minority groups that is bad news for all minority groups.

I genuinely didn't realise that these were perceptions/experiences people have had of left wing politics. To be fair my experience is very regional, workers rights focused etc and not those in the higher echelons of power...

Well, @Scatterbrainbox , you'd need to look into the activities of Corbyn and read the Forde report. I've always been a Labour supporter, but do wonder why we've never had a woman leader, or a person of colour. Look at how diverse the conservatives are - what's going wrong?

It originates largely from soviet era antisemitism and the associated tropes re power and imperialism. Antisemitism flourishes on the far left and the far right predominantly. Corbyn’s worldview reflects the “anti-Zionism” ideology (soviet origin) He’s just too stupid to disguise his antisemitism

I'll probably vote labour, but it'll be heavily dependent on who they have standing in my area. Can't be much worse than my current local MP though 🙈 He's a Tory and a scarily spineless one at that. Very high up in government. I get angry every time I see his face on TV

I think it begins with putting together sensible routes to apply for asylum in the first place. Legal, safe, sensible channels to stop these boats from arriving.

I think then 30 days is a reasonable timeframe to process an application - not two years, which would solve the problem.

Beyond that, once those measures were in place there would be a discussion about accommodation, but essentially I think as I said earlier the entire refugee system is 50 years out of date now.

Europe obviously can't continue taking in migrants at this rate generally.

Marxist ideology is infected with Russian antisemitic propaganda, painting "zionists" as representative of all world evil - colonialism, hidden networks of Jews controlling governments, a state within a state, conspiracy theory. Almost every hard left person I have met is completely infected by it. Which is a shame because they have some good ideas too.

Moreover though, very left wing people see the world as they want it to be and rarely like it is. They can't allow for the reality that not every brown person is nice. Not every poor person is nice. Not every leader of a developing nation wants equality or justice.

Some people don't want those ideals at all, and left wing people always want to believe they would or could if they just had a bit of help. It's not really true. Although it's probably a nice dream. The world is full of people who see things in all sorts of different ways and right wing people tend to be better at seeing it.

I am saying all that as someone who is very left wing, but who also accepts things like: Hamas don't want peace and justice. They want to kill Jews and ensure Islamic dominance. That is where the left stumble - in seeing the cold hard truth of some things.

Exactly

Once people start saying things like 'he's just too stupid...' I switch off an don't expect to hear a balanced or researched view.
Totally different to the pp who is talking about the Forde report, their own experiences etc.
But I won't be convinced that anti Zionist and anti semitic are the same thing.
I have actually pulled up the Forde report as I am very interested in some of the points posters have raised.
My friends/family/ people I know through the labour party are from a diverse range of backgrounds. DH is of Sri Lankan heritage (family are Catholic but he's not particularly religious), kids mixed race, friends from a range of economic/religious/cultural backgrounds. All would identify as supporting equal rights in every sense. We do all work predominantly public sector... NHS, social care, teaching... In services that have been decimated by Tory policy and resulting in catastrophic effects for some of the people we work with. And this is probably quite typical regionally in terms of the number of people employed in public sector or disproportionately affected by Tory policy. So Tory is practically a swear word to us.
So I think that despite the issues raised up thread about lack of diversity at the top of the labour party are a big issue , it's just that there are probably other issues that have drowned that out for us.
I do feel that there is more hate directed at labour politicians from minority backgrounds...look at the treatment of Diane Abbot, David Lammy. And Angela Rayner for the crime of being working class. I don't think I have seen that directed at Tory politicians from minority backgrounds in the same way (hatred for their policies...Suella Braverman for e.g., but not their background).

I feel much the same on most things - albeit I differ with regards to my views on Starmer as explained.

I also feel put off the greens by the fact I might end up with all the same arseholes. Although the deputy leader, Zack Polanski is Jewish and I absolutely love him

Because I am not really tribal.

I thought some people on the left wing of the Labour party were very antisemitic.

And I thought some people on the right of the Labour party (including some Jews) milked antisemitism because they didn't like Corbyn's ideas.

I thought some Jewish leaders, certainly some Rabbis, behaved badly around it.

Like I said: I would have liked to see the problem dealt with through education and growth rather than what seemed like a war.

From my end, the left is more antisemitic than it was before it all started - so how have I benefitted from them being banned from Labour? How have my kids been benefitted?