To wonder who left wing Jews should vote for?

[LemonyTicket]

I had this chat with my adult kids tonight as as left wing Jews, we've got no idea who we will vote for.

We don't really agree with Tory economic ideas, we believe in equitable distribution of resources. We appreciate Tories are generally supportive of Jews, but find they're hostile to other minorities. Maybe I could bring myself to vote Tory if there was a milder option, like John Major, but I don't think I could vote for this lot.

We think the left is in the thralls of an antisemitic nervous breakdown to a point of being a very uncomfortable, so that's a deal breaker for us. And while we're extremely socially liberal, we think the stuff has gone a bit far and basic common sense has left the building.

Who will you be voting for?

Because threads move on and people post who aren't just the OP and they say things that you might want to respond to.

Also even if I did claim the poster was from CCHQ (or from Mars or Lib Dems or Russian intelligence services) that still isn't shutting down a discussion. It is expressing a theory or idea which others can ignore or disagree with or agree with as they see fit while continuing the discussion.

Although his wife’s mother converted so not strictly full Jew according to some beliefs.

Seems you possess the usual lefty wing blind spot for humour.

Read.

Again.

In a first past the post system I feel you have to try and stomach the least worst of the two main parties in your constituency otherwise your vote is pointless. I will vote Labour but through gritted teeth. I am not Jewish but have Jewish extended family. I did not think Corbyn was antisemitic.

It’s trying to undermine their views by suggesting they are not legitimate

Are you actually now saying it’s ok to do this to Jewish posters because they are not talking about your party in the best light

Why not believe someone has actual concerns that you might not get

What does it actually add? Other than your inability to read non Labour aligned posts without resorting to the usual

Sorry, you know what I mean - the modern application of universal human rights, the genocide convention, the rights of refugees and the various human rights organisations didn't really exist before the holocaust.

Sorry, but big fat hairy bollocks. That is (another) ri8ght wing trope used to whip up the mob ... "we never needed 'uman rights in my day" sort of thing.

I will sadly admit it's not always been shown in practice, but lets remember from 200 years ago:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

And I follow British Legal convention in that the masculine includes the feminine.

I have zero sense of humour. I'm famous on MN for it.

You'll never catch me cracking a joke.

Do you think talking to the antisemitic left would have actually worked?

It seems a bit much to expect Keir to single handedly remove antisemitism from your daily life.

I struggle to see how doing anything other than removing (a very small number of) people from the Labour party was within his power to actually do.

If he had kept all the lunatics in the party and said "I will talk to them and help them identify the errors in their antisemitic thoughts so they change their ways thus ending anti semitism on the left", people would have been up in arms about him not taking anti semitism seriously and punishing people who expressed it by removing them.

I really don't know. But it's a mess. There are many people here who do take the "invasion" point of view. I personally couldn't give a monkeys about the ethnic or religious breakdown of where I live, but I also respect more conservative points of view because there is an element to preservation of culture and so on.

My leftie impulse with immigration is "who cares", because I like living in a multicultural world (it feels like a very fortunate position and how the world should always have been). but on the other hand, I wonder if there is an element of importance in places preserving their culture.

So I question myself on this. Am I too leftie? Is there a sense of importance that Thailand is kept Thai? With mostly Thai people and Thai religious beliefs and Thai culture? I don't know.

I work off the principle that I know for a fact conditions in many places like Syria, Afghanistan or Iran are terrible, and people seeking safe harbour must be given it. But I think some effort to helping people be safe where they came from would be better.

I read a really interesting study once that refugees, if welcomed and treated positively will integrate into local culture positively and become an asset to their new home country - whereas if they are treated with hostility, the opposite is more likely. So I think we do a terrible job of alienating minorities here.

I really don't think I could vote for any party that treated refugees poorly to be honest. It's such a big issue for me. Given the history of my own family. Limit numbers, have a system in place, whatever - I can be practical about it. But this nonsense like putting human beings on barges turns my stomach. It reminds me so much of how Jews were treated and it makes me ashamed of the UK

I cannot possibly understand the complexity of your feelings as part of the Jewish community so please excuse me if I seem insensitive.

I don’t think any political party is a perfect fit for me on every issue so I understand that I have to look for ‘best fit’. As an ex teacher and grandparent, who do I think will do best for state schools? As someone who is getting older, who do I think will support the NHS better? As someone who supports a greener agenda, who is more committed to that? As someone who supports workers’ rights and a fairer distribution of wealth, who do I trust?

Surely we’re all part of many communities and we need to not let one issue blind us to all the others? As a left leaning member of the Jewish community, where is your ‘best fit’? Because sadly we all know, none of our political parties is perfect.

I think comparatively we are ok in the U.K., it’s one of the big draws for such a multicultural addition. Personally a more diverse society is my choice so this mixed part of London is by far my preference.

Although I do think things will change in next decade or so. Maybe sooner I can’t say. Due to climate pressures. Whilst I think a multicultural society has flourished there’s the flip side of destabilisation- which Putin uses when he pushes people movement to EU

We can get on in a peaceful post war world. At this point I’ll take conversation on the approach in a climate pressured, increasingly volatile world

I think we’ll always welcome immigration (numbers may vary by person) but it’s the international rights you mention that is up against it.

Tell me you’re a lifelong Tory voter without telling me you’re a lifelong Tory voter.

Above comment was to this.

Well, I don't think either Tory or Labour have the key policies I'd like to see domestically. The Green party is closest on that.

But I couldn't vote for and support any party that was antisemitic. That is a dealbreaker!

@LemonyTicket, Thanks for your detailed reply. Much to ponder. Sorry unable to write much more today, but, briefly, am thinking Western actions such as the Iraq war didn’t help with combating extremism in the Middle East. Also you say there needs to be a global effort to introduce a framework of international human rights. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) was a similar aim, no? Has sadly been ignored by many countries.

As someone stupid enough to have studied science, threads like this - where not once does anyone define the subject matter - are intensely intense.

I'd agree that barges are not ideal @LemonyTicket , but if it's a choice between a barge and a tent or a tarpaulin overhead? Given that there aren't a million new build individual ensuite flatlets just waiting for tenants available to hand out. It's dry and waterproof.

Totally.

Keir isn't antisemitic.

The spurned barges you are talking about are routinely used to provide crew accommodation for white English people working offshore on oil rigs in open seas. These are tethered to land, near small towns. Where do you think people awaiting due process should be accommmodated?

Let's start with a new question. How do you @LemonyTicket feel migrants should be greeted? What accommodation do you think is appropriate?

And where is that accommodation available, standing empty and ready?

50,000 people are likely to arrive in the UK via small unseaworthy boats across the Channel. Uninvited, undocumented. No wonder the Italians elected Meloni. They have had over 160,000. So far, this year.

We have to do better to help them prosper at home.