If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

[Poudretteite]

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

The Israelis don't want the Gazans out of Gaza, they just want Hamas out of Gaza.

Quite why Arab nations won't help the Palestinians, I don't know.

Egypt and the other Arab countries believe Israel wants to push all the Gazans out, which is all that matters for this purpose. That's why it doesn't make sense that Egypt or any of the others should worry that accepting the refugees would cut off their aid from the US.

No they don't, if that's what Israel wanted to do they could have done it at any time they chose and they know this.

You're aware Israel left Gaza in 2005 in order to promote peace, right?

Many of us who support the Palestinian people have condemned Hamas for its despicable actions of killing innocent civilians

But I find on these threads that the majority of people will just not acknowledge that looking at the wider picture and context that Israel also has done wrong

Even right now the UN have condemned in the strongest terms that Israel may be committing crimes against humanity. Il post the reference in my next post. Yet il have people bombarding me with 'well what do you expect Israel to do" it has been reporter many of the civilians who died overnight by the bombing in the South of Gaza were civilians who moved from the North, it is actually horrific

UN: Siege of Gaza and evacuation order 'could amount to' crime against humanityThe United Nations human rights office has said Israel's siege of Gaza and its evacuation order could amount to the international crime of the forcible transfer of civilians.
Israel has cut off electricity, fuel and water supplies to Gaza and killed 2,800 people with airstrikes, as well as ordered more than one million civilians in the north to move to the south of the territory.
"We are concerned that this order, combined with the imposition of a complete siege of Gaza, may not be considered as lawful temporary evacuation and would therefore amount to a forcible transfer of civilians in breach of international law," said Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the UN human rights office.
The term "forcible transfer" describes the forced relocation of civilian populations and it is a crime against humanity punishable by the International Criminal Court.

I can't find it now but I even saw a post saying that the UN is anti semitic.

I'm not making any claim about what Israel does or doesn't want! Read it more carefully. What's relevant is what Egypt and the rest of the Arab world believes Israel, and the US, wants.

RedCrossSupporter said that a statement from a Hamas commander (which included wording that the entire planet would have no Jews or Christians) sounded like a peace and justice objective.

When I challenged RedCrossSupporter about it, I never got a response and now you’re defending them. Why?!

I think it boils down to definitions of Zionism again.

”no Zionism” to me means no occupied territories/ no settlements. To others it may mean Jews wiped out of the planet. I would the support the former but (obviously)not the latter.

That said you’d have to be a fool to trust Hamas as far as you could throw them. Their intentions are bad, we know this.

With regard to RedCross specifically I think she has come under fire for daring to back up her arguments with sources. There has been a certain amount of gaslighting going on, I’ve already commented on that.

I have seen babies on ventilators with doctors saying the fuel is about to run out. Those babies will most likely die. My own daughter was on a ventilator this year fighting for her life. I just can't imagine the horrors those parents are facing. It seems so many here are detached from the unimaginable terrible situation that innocent people are facing because they are too staunch on their 'side'

The Israeli embassador actually had the brass nerve to say there was no humanitarian crisis in gaza. I don't know what world she is living in yet I don't see any criticism for that. Should we only have selective outrage depending on which country we are talking about
That's honestly the vibes I get on most of these threads which Is why I mostly stopped commenting. There is alot of gaslighting for anyone who supports palestine or condemns Israel

She compared it to the American Declaration of Independence.

What does it matter what Zionism means to you? We're talking about what it means to a Hamas commander. This is what it means to him:

We believe in what our Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake, and I have seen its eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation would reach those ends that have been drawn near me,"

They can literally say they want world domination for their religion and some of you will still look the other way. Oh so very Declaration of Independence-ish.

What does it matter what Zionism means to you?

I was just answering the question I was asked.

She compared it to the American Declaration of Independence

The American Declaration of Independence is a bit problematic in that the people who wrote it would not of given any rights whatsoever to anyone who wasn’t a white male. I assumed she was being ironic but maybe I’m wrong.

Ironic? Seriously? There's 'problematic' stuff going on around here alright but it's not the American Declaration of Independence.

Ironic? Seriously? There's 'problematic' stuff going on around here alright but it's not the American Declaration of Independence

Again, just answering the question I was asked.* *

@Pollyputhekettleon (and everyone),

As I stated in my previous post, Hamas was already providing social support for the population vs Fatah’s kleptocracy.

It is import to understand why they were elected. Although some who voted for them were antisemitic (as in anti Jewish, as they are themselves Semitic), the majority of them voted for them based on governance pledges. Of course, the outcome has been horrific, but it is important to not tar all Palestinians with the same brush. The below article and quote are interesting :

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/expose/book/why-hamas-socioeconomic-and-political-foundations-islamists’-popularity

‘Hamas’s socioeconomic platform was not just empty rhetoric; ever since 1988, Hamas had been providing extra-governmental social welfare services to lower-middle class Palestinians who had been left behind by Fatah’s policies. Throughout the 1990s and early 2000s, Islamic charities (zakats) offered critical monetary support to impoverished Palestinians. Despite the fact that the PA’s Ministry of Awqaf was technically in charge of the zakats, Hamas’s grassroots movement had forged tight-knit relations with these charities, and many Hamas policymakers had served at the head of the organizations.[43] This extensive network of Hamas-affiliated zakats proved instrumental in Hamas’s rise, especially during the economic downturn triggered by the Second Intifada. Considering that Hamas’s charities often worked closely with housewives, it is no surprise that housewives were an integral component of Hamas’s voting bloc in 2006.[44] Hamas also offered alternatives to PA-run schools and social services. Funded by foreign donors, Hamas established youth organizations, orphanages, libraries, and athletic, medical, vocational, and educational facilities. Hamas organized mass weddings and child-care services for poor Palestinian couples as well.[45] These routine actions rarely made newspaper headlines like Hamas’s terrorism did, but they provide crucial context to Hamas’s electoral success. With the central Fatah government unable to provide basic social services to many Palestinians, Hamas was able to step in and address communities that felt neglected. Consequently, a vote for Hamas was not simply a vote for radical Islamism, but oftentimes a vote for food, jobs, financial security, and the other unmet needs of the average Palestinian.’

It's terribly sad. I've been following the Palestinian journalist/photographer Motaz Azaiza on Instagram and his stories just get sadder and sadder. I made the mistake of clicking on one of his reels that had a sensitive content warning yesterday and I can't get it out of my head, I cried watching it and then cried later when telling dh about it, those poor children. Then today he had a story up that showed what they were retrieving from bombed buildings and it is no wonder they don't know the true body count. The poor man looks haunted. Dead friends, dead family, whole neighborhoods and lives destroyed, a million people displaced. Watching it play out and knowing that some people think that this is the right thing to do is just beyond words. It is all just beyond words.

I will just add don't follow him/watch his stories unless you have a strong stomach, he is showing the reality of the life and death of Palestinians right now and it isn't in any way pleasant.

Except you didn’t, you conveniently ignored the reference to no Christians.

Except you didn’t, you conveniently ignored the reference to no Christians

What does that have to do with it? My comment on the Declaration of Independence I mean.

My post:

RedCrossSupporter said that a statement from a Hamas commander (which included wording that the entire planet would have no Jews or Christians) sounded like a peace and justice objective.

Your response only referred to what Zionism meant. You conveniently ignored that the Hamas commander also referred to no Christianity on the planet. That’s not what I would call a peace and justice objective.

Your response only referred to what Zionism meant. You conveniently ignored that the Hamas commander also referred to no Christianity on the planet. That’s not what I would call a peace and justice objective.

I don’t think anyone was really calling it that. I took it that she was just making a comparison with the Declaration of Independence but it wasn’t my comment so I can’t really say.

Hamas can be called many things but peaceful is probably not one of them.

Well to me that sounds more like a more wordy way of saying an objective of “equality and justice for all”

That was RedCrossSupporter’s exact response to a statement from Hamas about no Jews or Christians on the planet. So she was calling it that.

Anyone else curious about how Hamas managed to operate on one of their French-Israeli hostages for 3 hours after she was shot in her shoulder? It's almost like Hamas have access to hospitals. So strange, seeing as the hospitals keep saying they're innocent and not hiding any terrorists. It almost seems like they might be lying and that Hamas are, in fact, hiding in hospitals. But that would be crazy, seeing as the UN and the red cross have assured us that's not the case.

I guess it will just have to remain a mystery

@OhHelloTheres don't be ridiculous
Do you really expect a doctor to not treat a an innocent patient just because they were bought in by a terrorist. Also ever occurred to you that the ones who don't want to be detected don't go around with a big sign reading HAMAS on them. Use abit of common sense

Gaza hospital treats innocent Israeli civilian

Mumsnetter: Ahah! The hospitals are hiding hamas
With the implication there we go, now you see why Israel have to bomb the hospitals

@Parkingt111 if a hostage was taken to a hospital and a surgeon operated, it means Hamas were in that same hospital. This is were Israel has been saying for years - Hamas hide in schools and hospitals. Maybe it's time to start actually believing it?

The doctors would have known it was a hostage. That she was there with her captors. They're not idiots. They know.