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If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

1000 replies

Poudretteite · 14/10/2023 14:39

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

OP posts:
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Mustardseed86 · 16/10/2023 20:36

Dibblydoodahdah · 16/10/2023 20:09

Did you miss the bit about no Jews or Christians… or do you not care about that?!

Unbelievable, isn't it? Hmm

Pollyputhekettleon · 16/10/2023 20:56

I'll do this again. Anyone who thinks Hamas' use of the words injustice and oppression contradicts the rest of their position might like to consider for a moment that they may not define those words in the same way that you do. I'm not permitted to tell you what they mean because apparently they're a protected class for MN, but you can find out for yourself with a bit of effort.

Dibblydoodahdah · 16/10/2023 21:02

Mustardseed86 · 16/10/2023 20:36

Unbelievable, isn't it? Hmm

The one positive is that the post showed exactly what they are…and that’s
certainly not someone that believes in equality and justice for all!

EsmaCannonball · 16/10/2023 21:08

And there's very unlikely to be a Red Cross to support if Hamas get their way.

Mustardseed86 · 16/10/2023 21:22

Dibblydoodahdah · 16/10/2023 21:02

The one positive is that the post showed exactly what they are…and that’s
certainly not someone that believes in equality and justice for all!

Yep. It's was obvious before, and now it's undeniable. Mask off.

Trulywonderful · 16/10/2023 21:25

OneHurtSpaggettio · 16/10/2023 19:06

The German Zionist Jews worked with Hitler to facilitate the mass emigration of Jews to Palestine, you do realise that, right? The Jews who emigrated did exactly as Hitler wanted. He believed in the Jews being separated and he also believed in an ethnically “pure” State - as did the Zionists, and they still believe that Palestine must be “cleansed” of non-Jews:
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2003/9/18/zionists-aim-for-ethnically-pure-palestine

Have you not heard of the Haavara Agreement? That was the agreement that the Zionists signed with Hitler that facilitated the mass emigration of Jews to Palestine.

And there you go again trying your hardest to dehumanise Palestinians, assumedly so that you can sleep at night when you think about Israel currently dropping white phosphorus on Palestinian hospitals and densely populated areas to burn through their flesh (breaking international law).

Do you also think about how it’s “their fault” when you think of the 730+ dead Palestinian children who Israel killed this week? The children who Israel are starving and depriving of water and aid? The death sentence of forcing 1.1 million people out with 24 hours notice and then bombing their exit route (which was a death sentence for those injured)? But you couldn’t care less, could you? What does that say about you and others on this thread who hold your same views?

I do know all that but the Jews didn't understand what was planned for them at the time by the arab leader of the time. He actually asked hilter if he minded the him copying his methods. Meaning genocide of the Jews. It is all documented you can Google that. From memory there is a audio recording of the meet too. So it hasn't been faked or anything. Palestinian leaders have continued to follow nazi ideology as well as their own take on Islamic teaching. A very dangerous mix. You only have to look at the nazi flags they wave nd proudly erect to this day. Not to mention Hamas supporters shouting that Hitler was right etc.

The fact that large numbers of Palestinian people still have nazi ideology ingrained is just that a fact. Photos all over the Internet, YouTube videos etc. It isn't new or something to dispute. Like the fact there are shops and places in Gaza city that celebrate this link. Though I suppose probably not after the over zelus bombings happening currently.

I definitely can sleep fine. It is not myself that is fanning a conflict by spreading hate bias. It is not myself that supports one side blindly therefore suggesting they are not genuinely thinking about the welfare of all human beings in the conflict. You have not ever asked my own opinion of the conflict or issues. You just assume because I state facts that you don't like I think one way or another. You are not seeing me as I am but seeing yourself as you are. If you don't want to hear a different side of an issue don't come on a thread that is debating.

Pointless people engaging if you only want to hear Free Palestine from every poster. Then get accusational if they dare to post anything that challenges your own opinion.

If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?
Maatandosiris · 16/10/2023 21:39

Mustardseed86 · 16/10/2023 21:22

Yep. It's was obvious before, and now it's undeniable. Mask off.

Yes I gave up with this person (assuming it is an actual person) a long time upthread. It’s clear they have no concern about the Jews in Israel (or anywhere else)
or Christian’s. They support the Hamas objective of turning the whole of Israel Islamic,from the river to the sea. There would be no room for anyone other than Muslims. This is what they state their objective to be. We have seen over the past week how these people treat non- Muslims, burning little children alive, raping women, slaughtering anyone who doesn’t bow down to their ideology. In short they are advocating for a group akin to the Taliban to be unleashed on the holy land.

LemonyTicket · 16/10/2023 22:12

Mumsnet has now reached its zenith.

Full blown Jihadi supporters now.

Equality and justice!

Mask off no question

RandomButtons · 16/10/2023 22:15

Maatandosiris · 16/10/2023 17:00

I think you’ll find it’s Egypt not letting them in. You do realise the new world order run by Jews where they control everything is anti semitic fakery don’t you?

Oh DFOD. It’s not unheard of for countries to control their own borders. Border between Gaza and Egypt is 50% Egyptian soil and 50% Israel soil. That is in no way saying I think Israel controls everything.

Maatandosiris · 16/10/2023 22:50

RandomButtons · 16/10/2023 22:15

Oh DFOD. It’s not unheard of for countries to control their own borders. Border between Gaza and Egypt is 50% Egyptian soil and 50% Israel soil. That is in no way saying I think Israel controls everything.

You mean the Rafah border, the one on the border of Gaza and Eygpt. The one specifically not controlled by Israel?

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-what-is-the-rafah-border-crossing-and-who-controls-it-12985441

Israel-Hamas war: What is the Rafah border crossing and who controls it?

Rafah is Gaza's only gateway to the rest of the world that's not directly controlled by Israel.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-what-is-the-rafah-border-crossing-and-who-controls-it-12985441

OhHelloTheres · 17/10/2023 07:46

Oh FFS @RedCrossSupporter you can't just literally change what Hamas are saying to fit your narrative 🤦🏻‍♀️ Unless you're also ok with us making changes to what the Israeli side are saying? Absolute lunacy.

Egypt doesn't want to open their border because they also have a history of Hamas problems. No one wants Hamas except for Hamas themselves.

Pollyputhekettleon · 17/10/2023 07:53

That article says Egypt thinks it will be left supporting 2 million Palestinians as refugees long term if it lets them in. Presumably this is the same ideology of not allowing Israel to win that's behind other Arab states' refusals to grant descendants of Palestinians refugees citizenship. They'll let them die in Gaza rather than, in their eyes, let Israel win.

Reallifelurker · 17/10/2023 08:24

I just wanted to say @RedCrossSupporter that you’ve written fantastic posts on this thread, backed up with plenty of reliable, robust sources.
**
In the face of the echo chamber of nodding heads, who have said nothing substantiated whilst trying to gaslight you and everyone reading this thread into believing the opposite of UN reports written in black and white, you have remained calm, polite and eloquent

Shes got more patience than I have that’s for sure.

bananasplitsarefab · 17/10/2023 08:26

Pollyputhekettleon · 17/10/2023 07:53

That article says Egypt thinks it will be left supporting 2 million Palestinians as refugees long term if it lets them in. Presumably this is the same ideology of not allowing Israel to win that's behind other Arab states' refusals to grant descendants of Palestinians refugees citizenship. They'll let them die in Gaza rather than, in their eyes, let Israel win.

You make some good points, Polly.

It has always been a bugbear of mine that the Gulf States (some of the richest countries in the world) don't seem to help refugees.

Here's why;

Legally, they’re not obligated to help. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain and other Gulf states are among the few nations in the world that have not signed a 1951 U.N. treaty on refugees. That’s a key legal document that defines what a refugee is and spells out their rights and states’ legal obligations. But since Gulf states haven’t signed the treaty, any victim of war would need to meet the same standards as anyone else to obtain a visa.

Pollyputhekettleon · 17/10/2023 08:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Pollyputhekettleon · 17/10/2023 08:41

Reallifelurker · 17/10/2023 08:24

I just wanted to say @RedCrossSupporter that you’ve written fantastic posts on this thread, backed up with plenty of reliable, robust sources.
**
In the face of the echo chamber of nodding heads, who have said nothing substantiated whilst trying to gaslight you and everyone reading this thread into believing the opposite of UN reports written in black and white, you have remained calm, polite and eloquent

Shes got more patience than I have that’s for sure.

It's not patience that's required to spin a genocidal jihadist statement from Hamas into the American Declaration of Independence. You're all showing your true colours now.

Newbutoldfather · 17/10/2023 09:40

I think that labelling any criticism of Israel as antisemitism and any criticism of the Islamic world as Islamophobia will never lead to a solution.

To me, Israel has as much right to exist, and to be Jewish, as any country in the world. All land borders are artificial and came out of an agreement or armed struggle at some point in history. I do come from the standpoint that, if you are against Israel’s existence, you are antisemitic.

However, believing that Israel’s right to peacefully exist gives it carte blanche to do whatever it likes is a massive error. It has been drifting towards a more extreme policy and, in certain areas (such as housing developments in Jerusalem for Jews only) it does seem to be moving towards apartheid. The settlements in the occupied areas are also pushing peace further away, as without dismantling them, there now seems no fair two state solution.

OTOH, Hamas are terrorists, at least some of them. What is more complex is that they are also administrators and got voted in by efficiently delivering a better quality of life to the citizens under their control. I don’t know if this was a deliberate Trojan horse to get terrorists a base, or that they have gradually become extremists (maybe a bit of both).

Iran is also a tremendously bad actor and, I suspect, regime change in Iran is the only way to a solution, whether that comes from within or without. If regime change cannot be effected they need to be detoothed by very severe sanctions.

Israel definitely have a right and a need to get Hamas’s war infrastructure out of Gaza, and that will be an ugly process. But then what? Do they occupy it for the long term, and provide a running grievance or do they move out and allow Hamas (with Iran’s help) to rebuild.

This is crying out for a global solution, but no one cares now. We are moving from ‘post history’ back to regional axes of power and cold war. It won’t be pretty…

Pollyputhekettleon · 17/10/2023 10:12

@Newbutoldfather

'OTOH, Hamas are terrorists, at least some of them. What is more complex is that they are also administrators and got voted in by efficiently delivering a better quality of life to the citizens under their control. I don’t know if this was a deliberate Trojan horse to get terrorists a base, or that they have gradually become extremists (maybe a bit of both).'

They were not voted in because they delivered better quality of life to anyone. How could they have when they weren't in power then, Fatah were? They have not gradually become extremists. This is from Hamas' founding charter in 1988:

'the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).'

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988 (yale.edu)

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Reallifelurker · 17/10/2023 10:17

With regard to the Rafah crossing the two main reasons that it remains closed (from what I can see) is that Egypt doesn’t want an a large influx of refugees and it doesn’t want to see the Palestinians effectively driven out of Gaza.

Reallifelurker · 17/10/2023 10:19

Mumsnet has now reached its zenith.

Full blown Jihadi supporters now.

Equality and justice!

Mask off no question

Shes not a Jihadi supporter. Don’t be daft.

DavidSnow007 · 17/10/2023 10:20

Reallifelurker · 17/10/2023 10:17

With regard to the Rafah crossing the two main reasons that it remains closed (from what I can see) is that Egypt doesn’t want an a large influx of refugees and it doesn’t want to see the Palestinians effectively driven out of Gaza.

Edited

I'd suggest it doesn't want to do anything to annoy the US that has sent them a quarter of a billion pounds in "aid"

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/14/us/politics/egypt-biden-military-aid.html

But not opening your borders to refugees in need is beyond despicable.

Pollyputhekettleon · 17/10/2023 10:23

DavidSnow007 · 17/10/2023 10:20

I'd suggest it doesn't want to do anything to annoy the US that has sent them a quarter of a billion pounds in "aid"

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/14/us/politics/egypt-biden-military-aid.html

But not opening your borders to refugees in need is beyond despicable.

I'm not sure how much sense it makes that it would annoy the US. The Egyptians think Israel wants the Gazans out and into Egypt, so as an Israeli ally why wouldn't the US want that too?

Dibblydoodahdah · 17/10/2023 10:39

Reallifelurker · 17/10/2023 10:19

Mumsnet has now reached its zenith.

Full blown Jihadi supporters now.

Equality and justice!

Mask off no question

Shes not a Jihadi supporter. Don’t be daft.

RedCrossSupporter said that a statement from a Hamas commander (which included wording that the entire planet would have no Jews or Christians) sounded like a peace and justice objective.

When I challenged RedCrossSupporter about it, I never got a response and now you’re defending them. Why?!

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