If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

[Poudretteite]

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

The Palestinian Authority isn’t a nation state with sovereignty, so there can be no citizens of it. The different passports are part of the apartheid, it is issued to Palestinian residents of Palestinian Territories. The passports do not denote citizenship.

If you don’t believe me, here it is
”As of 1997, Palestinian passports were not issued in the name of the State of Palestine.[9] Some countries, including the United States, recognize Palestinian Authority passports as travel documents, though the recognition of the passports does not imply recognition by them of citizenship, since they are not issued by a government which they recognize.[1] Egypt, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates have indicated only (in May 2002) that the passports, along with valid visas or other necessary papers, would allow their holders to travel to their countries.[1]”

Yes. I'd blockade people too if they were trying to kill me and import weapons.

Apartheid is a nonsense definition and abomination of the word.

Equality is enshrined in law in Israel. Equality is central to its constitution. Arabs are judges, politicians, military etc.

The only thing that qualifies the definition of apartheid are preposterous twists of truth.

Ie: restricting movement is not done to be racist ..... itts self defence!

And it is a military occupation and apartheid
”“There is today in the Palestinian territory occupied by Israel since 1967 a deeply discriminatory dual legal and political system that privileges the 700,000 Israeli Jewish settlers living in the 300 illegal Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank,” said Michael Lynk, the UN Special Rapporteur for the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967.
“Living in the same geographic space, but separated by walls, checkpoints, roads and an entrenched military presence, are more than three million Palestinians, who are without rights, living under an oppressive rule of institutional discrimination and without a path to a genuine Palestinian state that the world has long promised is their right.
“Another two million Palestinians live in Gaza, described regularly as an ‘open-air prison’, without adequate access to power, water or health, with a collapsing economy and with no ability to freely travel to the rest of Palestine or the outside world.”
The Special Rapporteur said that a political regime which so intentionally and clearly prioritizes fundamental political, legal and social rights to one group over another within the same geographic unit on the basis of one’s racial-national-ethnic identity satisfies the international legal definition of apartheid.
“Apartheid is not, sadly, a phenomenon confined to the history books on southern Africa,” he said in his report to the Human Rights Council. “The 1998 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court came into law after the collapse of the old South Africa. It is a forward-looking legal instrument which prohibits apartheid as a crime against humanity today and into the future, wherever it may exist.”
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights

So the UNHCR is engaging in “preposterous twists of the truth” by saying apartheid is apartheid?

I’ll let readers decide who to give more weight to, lemonytwist or the UNHCR plus all these international experts too
Lynk said a number of recent reports and opinions issued by respected Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights organizations have come to the same conclusion on the practice of apartheid by Israel. He added that leading international personalities – including former UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, South African Foreign Minister Naledi Pandor and former Israeli Attorney General Michael Ben-Yair – have also all called this apartheid.

@RedCrossSupporter so you don't support a two-state solution then? Because Palestinians would not have Israeli passports if this is successfully implemented.

I do support a two state solution. My point is that passports are travel documents, not citizenship documents and in the case of Palestinians are only for travel and do not show or prove citizenship.

Plus think about it almost half the adult residents of Gaza were born in Israel, had lived in Israel for generations but have been expelled from their homes and land and made refugees in Gaza simply for not being Jewish.

Just over half are descendants of the Nakba, the expulsion from Israel in 1948.

Good grief @RedCrossSupporter please stop posting nonsense and / or copying and pasting from Wikipedia. You're wilfully misrepresenting truth and it makes the conversation silly.

Gazans aren't Israeli citizens
I'm pretty sure the US hasn't threatened to bomb Egypt if it helps Gazan citizens
Come now.

Just over half are descendants of the Nakba, the expulsion from Israel in 1948.

At some point though you have to work with the status quo. There were many Jewish people expelled from neighbouring Middle Eastern countries from 1948 onwards too, and that's not even getting into the events in Europe leading up to and during the second world war.

We are where we are now. Gazans are not Israeli citizens, and won't be even under the successful implementation of a two-state solution.

@RedCrossSupporter "restricting movement is not done to be racist ..... it's self defence! "

Let's not forget that Hamas is backed by Iran whose constitution supports the total anihilation of the State of Israel.

Just two years after becoming the current supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, declared ;-
“Our view regarding the issue of Palestine is clear and obvious. We believe the solution to Palestine is in destroying the Israeli regime. Don’t say that it can’t be done; there is no ‘can’t be done’ in the world. All the great mountains that serve as impediments to the movement of people can be moved.”

Yes. They are preposterously twisting the truth. The pillars of apartheid aren't present unless you wilfully misrepresent the unique situation.

PILLAR 1
Laws must discriminate based on race. They don't. They do the opposite. It's a crime to discriminate based on race. However, Jews have special right of return. Which is obviously because the unique nature of Israel is that it exists as the only state on earth for Jews. Laws which govern non citizens are not relevant. You cant have apartheid over your next door neighbour.

PILLAR 2
Movement or access to facilities must be restricted or segregated based on racial lines. Which is a concept grossly misrepresent. Its restricted to non citizens of Israel (like any other country) and its restricted due to repeated terrorist attacks and ongoing conflict. Its discriminatory, yes, but not segregated based on race.

PILLAR 3
Categorisation of the population along racial lines. Which is, again, misrepresenting the unique reality that this is a country where the entire point of it is to protect a minority race from a majority one that is trying to kill it or subjugate it and has been evidenced to have done that for 600 years.

Add onto that, that apartheid is racial, and whilst I've used that word above - it does not apply here.

Plus Jews actually did live for hundreds of tears under actual apartheid which did meet those three pillars and they still do in every country surrounding (including Palestine where they do not have equality).

So it's a definition which ignores the reality of the unique situation. Had Hamas and other terrorist organisations not been in perpetual conflict, 80% of this would disappear overnight.

But moreover, the nature of a Jewish state requires it to maintain majority Jewish status.

How is it a "fact" that Gazans are citizens of Israel?

How is it a faft that the US have war ships waiting and have told Egypt they will bomb them if they try and help Gazans?

Please!

Afternoon, all. In the interests of allowing discussion to continue, please do keep posts civil and avoid attacking anyone personally. Thank you.

It wasn’t a personal attack? Very confusing.

The Iranian foreign minister met Ismail Haniyeh yesterday and Khaled Mashal addressed a rally in Pakistan via video link. Mashal encouraged Pakistanis to set out for jihad.

The Iranian foreign minister met Ismail Haniyeh yesterday and Khaled Mashal addressed a rally in Pakistan via video link. Mashal encouraged Pakistanis to set out for jihad.

How very responsible of him. Just what the situation needs.

Poster you replied to was not doing that. They were pointing out that the claim of Jewish "subjugation" of Muslims is a LIE.

Thank you. I know the word apartheid has been used by organisations including the UN, which honestly shocks me as it's so disingenuous it's actually insulting to the black people who did suffer under apartheid in SA. You can address the grievances of the Palestinians without using inflammatory and inaccurate terminology.

IMHO it's a flagrant disrespect to the reality of the situation that Jews created Israel as a response to the very real apartheid they were under in the area for hundreds of years.

It's ignores that the situation is a 100 year conflict between two groups who equally despise one another based on racial / religious differences. It is not one way. The idea that Jews could go to live in Gaza (or Jordan, Or Iraq, or Syria) and work in the government or get top jobs and get equal treatment in law is laughable.

The reality of the situation is that while very, very flawed, Israel is the least discriminatory country in the area by a country mile. And using this word misrepresents reality.

I have seen and heard the attitudes of people and have no doubt bigotry and discrimination is a huge problem. I have no doubt Arab Muslims are hugely discriminated against. But that does not apartheid make. What it makes is the working reality of two rival groups at war.

One of the things I keep thinking about is whatever Israel does will draw negative publicity, but Hamas filmed themselves committing atrocities and put the footage online, confident in the knowledge that it would not lose them support. They knew the people who support them would actually enjoy those videos and it would boost their popularity.

Yes all internal Palestinian refugees (those in Gaza) are Israeli citizens.

I see you’ve had that deleted. This is a paper published by the Refugee Studies Center at Oxford University. Please take the time to read it.

Its a fact.
https://www.rsc.ox.ac.uk/publications/exiled-within-between-citizenship-and-the-struggle-for-return-for-internal-palestinian-refugees-in-israel/@@download/file

I'm pretty sure the US hasn't threatened to bomb Egypt if it helps Gazan citizens

Thats not what I said, I said that Egypt wants to provide humanitarian aid but are being prevented from doing so by Israel and the presence of the US warships. This is also a fact.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/egypts-president-sisi-talks-get-aid-gaza-presidency-says-2023-10-15/?ref=upstract.com

*Yes all internal Palestinian refugees (those in Gaza) are Israeli citizens.

I see you’ve had that deleted. This is a paper published by the Refugee Studies Center at Oxford University. Please take the time to read it.

Its a fact.*

That's an opinion, not a fact.

There is alarm in Egypt over the prospect that residents in Gaza could be displaced by Israel's siege and bombardment.

Sounds more like Egypt want assurances that the refugees won't become their problem.