If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

[Poudretteite]

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

Emm..im sorry But i don't know what you're on about. there was certainly no massacre of Jews in the ottoman land of what's today turkey. If that happened between Jews and Arabs in some far away place I don't know, but certainly it would not have been sanctioned by ottoman state. Ottomans liked and supported Jews. They had freedom of religion, Turks didn't force them to convert, they could have any profession, no ghettos, and many rose in the palace. In fact they were called "millet sadika" (our loyal nation) yes Non Muslims gave tax, which we today in history books learn this as an example of shit discriminatory practice. But no massacres. No forced conversions. We're talking about 1500-1850. The only time I know of oppression is when a fraction of Jews separated from mainstream, to follow a new messiah emerged amongst them, called sabatay sevi. Mainstream Jews complained about Jews following sevi, to the sultan. The sultan called sevi and ordered them to either leave or convert to mainstream or Islam. Sevi and his gang decided to convert to Islam. We have a sizeable minority still today, in addition to mainstream Jews. Jews are respected, and protected.

Actually many prominent anti-apartheid activists consider the situation to resemble the apartheid they lived with. There is a legal definition of apartheid so human rights organizations and Un experts don’t just throw out the word - they have legal analysis and research to back up their founding . Of course you are initialled to disagree, and many do, but it’s not just people throwing out inflammatory language.

The Israeli government and president have the view that Palestinians are a different race from the Jewish people. So this is met by perception and political will, if not by genetic or historic reality.

All the other pillars are in fact met as well.

The perpetual conflict has been two sided. Fear of terrorism is not an allowable exception to the definition of apartheid. You have applied your own criteria to the definitions. This is why it is important to let the experts make the call.

@Morrisdorris admittedly it was some time ago but wikipedia has an entry about the 1517 Hebron attacks.

The Israeli government and president have the view that Palestinians are a different race from the Jewish people. So this is met by perception and political will, if not by genetic or historic reality.

Can you explain the Arab Israeli citizens then? There are two million of them.

I beg to differ.
“Securitization policies are a double-faced coin: for every measure implemented for the safety of the Jewish citizens of Israel, restrictions are being imposed on the rights to movement and development of Palestinians. The complex system of status-associated rights and obligations has created hierarchies within the Palestinian community. In this apartheid-like structure, individuals are required to obtain different levels of authorization in their everyday lives solely based on where their families migrated to in the Nakba.
Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are subject to discriminatory practices in education, public services and the legal system. That’s the case of Samer Toume, who lives as a second class citizen in Israel and faces challenges in trying to reconnect with his origins in Iqrit.”

“. High unemployment rates in the West Bank have pushed many Palestinians to seek jobs in Israel or in the settlements, where they are hired as cheap labour, often illegally. Leaving the territory without a license means risking imprisonment and, according to Hassan, permits get denied all the time.
“We live in a huge prison”, he continues. “If you, as a human, are working everyday, and you want to go on a trip with your family, or friends or girlfriend, you have nowhere to go. Our seaside is occupied. If you want to travel anywhere you will have to empty your car first, because any tool that could possibly be used to hurt someone, even a nail clipper, could get you arrested or even killed.”
"A friend from Brazil brought me a stone from Jerusalem. It is strange, because it is the city where I was born, but after 27 years I cannot go there and pick it up myself. I showed it to all my friends: they felt happy because we could touch it, and smell it.”

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/israel-and-palestine-story-of-modern-colonialism/

Please watch you might find it informative

I absolutely do know what I'm talking about. What a strange thing to say. The failure to protect Jewish people from the Arab massacres is ultimately the responsibility of the empire governing the land. You don't seem to know about the rav akçesi and higher rates of ispence. These were specifically economic sanctions on the very existence of Jewish people. Forcibly dragging out Jews from their homeland to populate Constantinople, just after Jewish life had begun to recover a tiny bit? The Ottoman Empire forced Jewish people to wear specific colours of clothes for easy identification, banned them from worship outside of their homes, prevented access to holy sites or even the repair of holy sites, and even frequently accused Jewish people of partaking in ritualistic murders. That is in addition to the massacres of Jews carried out by Arab Muslims as the Ottomans looked on.

Stop pretending the Ottoman Empire was so lovely to Jewish people.

I do disagree, because it's an entirely different situation and context, so I question whether it's a useful description. Comparing it to the apartheid system is one thing, but that was explicitly a racist system in every way, and this is an ongoing conflict over land.

Egypt don’t have the resources to build and supply a refugee camp of 2 million people in the Sinai desert. Nor should Egypt have to because it is against international law and a war crime for Israel to forcefully displace an entire population. Egypt are pleading with Israel to follow international law and allow them to send in humanitarian aid in return for allowing foreign nationals out of Gaza at the Rafah crossing.
From same report I linked and you quoted:
“Egypt said on Sunday it had stepped up diplomatic efforts to get humanitarian aid into Gaza and its president told visiting U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken that Israel's bombardment of the territory was disproportional.
"The reaction went beyond the right to self-defence, turning into collective punishment for 2.3 million people in Gaza," President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi said of Israel's retaliatory strikes for Hamas militants' attacks a week ago.
Aid from several countries has been building up in Egypt's Sinai peninsula due to a failure to reach a deal enabling its safe delivery to Gaza along with evacuations of some foreign passport holders through the Rafah crossing into Egypt.
Israeli bombardments on the Gaza side of the Rafah crossing into Egypt, the main crossing out of Gaza not controlled by Israel, have disrupted operations there.”

@RedCrossSupporter you can differ if you wish but the State of Israel, in common with any other country, is the one who determines who it offers citizenship to and non-Israeli Palestinians are not included in that.

You've previously agreed with me that you support a two-state solution so I'm not sure where the insistance around the citizenship issue comes from given that would imply a one-state solution.

I find it ironic that this is given as an example of how Muslims and Jews lived together peacefully, when by their own standards it would have been very understandable if the Jewish residents had responded to their situation with terrorist attacks.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/israel-police-reporter-live-threat-b2430080.html

Feelings are running high. It is chilling to watch this.

Very well said

Yes I already mentioned the tax and today we read about it being discriminatory but for goodness sake it's hundreds of years ago... And the tax was Not for Jews only, it was for all non Muslims. Jews weren't subjected to ghettos, different coloured clothing or anything like that Im sorry but these assertions aren't true at all. You have to see the tax in the context of its time. Shit practice as I said. But no massacres. When Arabs were again at war with Jews ottomans were sending troops to separate them. You need to remember that ottomans this was happening thousands of miles away, and when news reach Constantinopole, the palace was trying to sort it out. Again hundreds of years ago... So think about horsemen bringing news to the palace news weren't travelling through social media... Ottomans gave the keys of the mosque to Jews and keys of the temple to the Muslims in order to negotiate peace. Silly behaviour you might think, like getting children to behave. Ottomans didn't encourage or sanction sny massacres against Jews at all! I'm really baffled as to why you'd think this. If anything, ottomans didn't really like the Arabs and there were a whole load more Jews in Turkey and in the palace than Arabs. Ottomans have been friends of Jews. It feels sad now to read Jewish people would even think otherwise...

You open by claiming the Rabbi tax wasn't specifically targeted at Jews. Can you see how this is a very silly claim?

No one said the Ottomans were the worst empire the Jewish people lived under, but let's not misinform people about the bad things they did do during their occupation of the Jewish homeland.

Yes, Israel decides who are citizens and internal Palestinian refugees, including those in Gaza are Israeli citizens. Some other poster was accusing me of saying the UN had designated them as citizens. This is not the case. Another poster suggested that PA passports, which are travel documents, indicate they are not Israeli citizens I posted the links showing that is also not the case.

I have now posted two academic papers that state the Israeli citizenship of internal Palestinian refugees as a fact.

The reason why citizenship matters is because posters were saying that Gaza was another country, a neighbouring state which is incorrect. It is a territory under Israeli occupation peopled with refugees from within Israel.

Citizenship also matters in regards to apartheid as you cannot have an apartheid situation when it is two seperate nation states.

This wasn't true the firs time you said it, and it isn't true now. Please stop erasing the very real Palestinian state and the identity of the Palestinians who live there. It's disrespectful to Palestinians and incites anti-semitism due to these false claims.

Some Palestinians were offered citizenship, including those in the city of Jerusalem, people who live in a distinct country do not. Please stop having these totally different standards for how Israel should give citizenship compared to every other country on earth, it's all rather mask off.

The apartheid in South Africa was also a conflict over land. As I posted earlier from the UNHCR document- it stated that Bishop Desmond Tutu who lived through Apartheid and was an activist to end it- he has stated that the Palestinian situation is also one of living in apartheid.

“Places of residence were determined by racial classification.[9]Between 1960 and 1983, 3.5 million black Africans were removed from their homes and forced into segregated neighbourhoods as a result of apartheid legislation, in some of the largest mass evictions in modern history.[11] Most of these targeted removals were intended to restrict the black population to ten designated "tribal homelands", also known as bantustans, four of which became nominally independent states.[9] The government announced that relocated persons would lose their South African citizenship as they were absorbed into the bantustans.”

”Once a homeland was granted its nominal independence, its designated citizens had their South African citizenship revoked and replaced with citizenship in their homeland. These people were then issued passports instead of passbooks. Citizens of the nominally autonomous homelands also had their South African citizenship circumscribed, meaning they were no longer legally considered South African.[91] The South African government attempted to draw an equivalence between their view of black citizens of the homelands and the problems which other countries faced through entry of illegal immigrants.”

”During the 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s, the government implemented a policy of "resettlement", to force people to move to their designated "group areas". Millions of people were forced to relocate.”

Ottomans gave the keys of the mosque to Jews and keys of the temple to the Muslims in order to negotiate peace.

What are you taking about? The Temple was destroyed by the Romans, centuries before the Ottoman Empire existed. There were no keys to it. Muslims built the Dome of the Rock and established the whole of the Temple Mount as a major focal point of Islam very soon after the religion began, and, again, centuries before the Ottoman Empire took control of Israel. The Ottoman Empire was a Muslim empire. They had no interest in allowing the Jews access to Jewish sacred ground, because to them it was Muslim sacred ground.

Ok I’ll try again <deep breath >

If you (or anyone else for that matter) thinks that the facts are being misrepresented and false information is being spread then you have to argue your case. You’re capable of doing this.

These posts where you (or others) just say “oh that’s silly” or “oh please stop expressing that opinion/making that argument. Just stop” are annoying. They came across as passive aggressive in tone and are ultimately useless in that they will not convince anyone they are wrong.

I have now posted two academic papers that state the Israeli citizenship of internal Palestinian refugees as a fact.

Academic papers aren't facts though, they are someone's opinion. You can certainly cite them to bolster why you think the Palestinians should have Israeli citizenship, and I'd be free to agree or otherwise on the strength of the argument, but claiming that because one or more academics hold a particular viewpoint makes it factual is erroneous.

It's not as if jihadi terrorists are known for treating journalists well. Just ask Daniel Pearl or James Foley or John Cantlie.