Page 27 | If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

Poudretteite · 2023-10-14T13:39:40+00:00

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide? Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:25

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:22

It is correct. Israel backed out after signing by not keeping their end of the bargain.

”The peace process that the deal was supposed to begin has been stillborn, with Israel continuing its illegal occupation of Palestinian territory, and the Palestinian people no closer to – and some would argue further away from – an independent state.”
”The Oslo Accords were supposed to bring about Palestinian self-determination, in the form of a Palestinian state alongside Israel. This would mean that Israel, which was formed on the land of historic Palestine in 1948 in an event Palestinians know as the Nakba, would accept Palestinian claims to national sovereignty. The claims, however, would only be limited to a fraction of historic Palestine, with the rest left to Israel’s sovereignty.”
”The Oslo Accords were supposed to bring about Palestinian self-determination, in the form of a Palestinian state alongside Israel. This would mean that Israel, which was formed on the land of historic Palestine in 1948 in an event Palestinians know as the Nakba, would accept Palestinian claims to national sovereignty. The claims, however, would only be limited to a fraction of historic Palestine, with the rest left to Israel’s sovereignty.”
”The Oslo Accords witnessed a slow decline, with Israel continuing its occupation of Palestinian land and refusing to withdraw militarily from the majority of the West Bank while continuing to conduct raids into land considered under the full administration of the PA.
Following Rabin’s death, a number of Israeli leaders who opposed the accords came to power, among them current Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as well as Ariel Sharon.
A second intifada from 2000 to 2005 in turn led to heavy casualties, particularly on the Palestinian side, and made both sides less willing to agree to move the deal along.
Any attempt at restarting talks failed in the decade after, and the accords’ interim clauses have become the status quo.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/13/what-were-oslo-accords-israel-palestinians

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It has already been explained to you, with resources signposted, why this is wrong. Do you need help finding the Aix and INSS websites?

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:25

@Asthebellcurves
The blockade is not ‘occupation’ and is a very silly application of the word.

You’re calling UN experts who have defined it as an occupation using international law and policy “very silly”?

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:26

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:24

Sorry what? Hamas didn’t exist in 1967 when the Israeli military occupation of Gaza started (and is still ongoing in the form of a blockade).

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Did you somehow miss the Ariel Sharon administration? Please do some research, it is painful to have to continually explain the linear nature of time and what facts are.

Reallifelurker · 15/10/2023 13:26

Israel have taken the role of the peace builder, in the right but willing (demonstrably) to compromise.

What???
I’m not being rude but what planet are you on?

LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 13:27

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 12:43

Israel is granting work permits to 10,000 Gazans

So only 10,000 people in a population of 2.3 million are allowed to work off the reservation. Can you not see how oppressive this is? Apply that to Manchester…it’s a city of the same size.

Give over. Hamas has had leadership for 18 years and every choice they have made has been to the harm of Palestinian citizens. They should have been creating jobs, infrastructure and opportunity but they've been more interested in the goal set out for a hundred years of not allowing a Jewish state to exist.

Allowing work permits for 10000 citizens of the country next door who's leaders have been trying to kill you for an extended time is actually a good thing. And it's devastating that Hamas didn't allow those people to benefit and decided to massacre instead. They never think about their own people

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:27

Reallifelurker · 15/10/2023 13:26

Israel have taken the role of the peace builder, in the right but willing (demonstrably) to compromise.

What???
I’m not being rude but what planet are you on?

Earth, often Israel and Palestine specifically actually. Have you missed the fact that Israel say yes to every peace deal, and Palestine say no?

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:27

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:25

It has already been explained to you, with resources signposted, why this is wrong. Do you need help finding the Aix and INSS websites?

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As I have linked resources for you. Yet you think the Israel military occupation came after Hamas! It was even in a bit I helpfully quoted for you from the UN. Obvious you are not even bothering to read UN documents.

Reallifelurker · 15/10/2023 13:28

it is painful to have to continually explain the linear nature of time

Looks impressive written down though 🙄

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:28

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:27

As I have linked resources for you. Yet you think the Israel military occupation came after Hamas! It was even in a bit I helpfully quoted for you from the UN. Obvious you are not even bothering to read UN documents.

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Okay. So did you know 1967 came before 2004, 2005, and 2006?

So you’d know that Israel unilaterally disengaged?

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:29

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:27

Earth, often Israel and Palestine specifically actually. Have you missed the fact that Israel say yes to every peace deal, and Palestine say no?

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This is incorrect. Both sides have agreed and both sides have rejected various peace deals as well.

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:30

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:28

Okay. So did you know 1967 came before 2004, 2005, and 2006?

So you’d know that Israel unilaterally disengaged?

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The UN and international experts have defined it as the same military occupation of Gaza that has been ongoing since 1967. Israel did not disengage from their occupation of Palestinian Territories.

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:32

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:29

This is incorrect. Both sides have agreed and both sides have rejected various peace deals as well.

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Your posts are fascinating, I’ve never encountered such stubbornly misinformation. Quite special.

Once again, do you recognise that Israel’s unilateral disengagement happened after 1967 (when territory was won by Israel during a war the neighbouring Muslim states initiated)? If so, you must recognise the status quo has changed and there is no military occupation.

As a side note, it’s a bit rich to start a war, lose, then cry about it. Actions have consequences.

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:33

LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 13:27

Give over. Hamas has had leadership for 18 years and every choice they have made has been to the harm of Palestinian citizens. They should have been creating jobs, infrastructure and opportunity but they've been more interested in the goal set out for a hundred years of not allowing a Jewish state to exist.

Allowing work permits for 10000 citizens of the country next door who's leaders have been trying to kill you for an extended time is actually a good thing. And it's devastating that Hamas didn't allow those people to benefit and decided to massacre instead. They never think about their own people

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Did you not read what a blockade is and how Israel controls all goods and supplies by land, sea and air. They can’t build infrastructure without Israel’s permission and Israel has even refused building permits to rebuild or repair schools destroyed by Israel’s own bombing of Gaza.

Gaza isn’t a ‘country next door’ all Gazans are Israeli citizens living under apartheid

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:34

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:33

Did you not read what a blockade is and how Israel controls all goods and supplies by land, sea and air. They can’t build infrastructure without Israel’s permission and Israel has even refused building permits to rebuild or repair schools destroyed by Israel’s own bombing of Gaza.

Gaza isn’t a ‘country next door’ all Gazans are Israeli citizens living under apartheid

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Okay I actually am quite concerned for you now. Gazans are not Israeli citizens. Please stop spouting rubbish

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:34

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:32

Your posts are fascinating, I’ve never encountered such stubbornly misinformation. Quite special.

Once again, do you recognise that Israel’s unilateral disengagement happened after 1967 (when territory was won by Israel during a war the neighbouring Muslim states initiated)? If so, you must recognise the status quo has changed and there is no military occupation.

As a side note, it’s a bit rich to start a war, lose, then cry about it. Actions have consequences.

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Your view is contrary to that of the United Nations and all international experts on the subject. I have linked to resources showing this. If anyone is misinformed, it is you.

LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 13:35

bendmeoverbackwards · 15/10/2023 13:19

@OhHelloTheres your comment about the rights of Israelis/Palestinians to the land - both sides claim they have rights to the land - it was originally the Jews’ but Palestinians have been living there for many years. But as one MN poster said quite rightly on another thread - aren’t we all living on land that wasn’t ours originally?

I am pro peace and care for both innocent Israelis and Palestinians. My view is that in order to bring about peace, one side has to back down even if they are in the right. It will never happen though and Hamas are not the sort of people to sit round the table to have a discussion with.

I am a believer that "land" doesn't belong to us philosophically. Especially as I'm a child of generations of refugees, the principle of "this is my father's land!" isn't one I identify with.

But I do think Jews belong in Judea. Its their ancestral home. Removing Jews from Israel feels wrong. Like removing Muslims from Mecca or Christians from Rome.It's tied to their archaeology, their history going back 3000 years.

I think it's really tragic Muslims and Jews couldn't live side by side. It's extremes of religion really that prevents it being so. A culture of "one true religion" and beliefs others need to adhere is so destructive and always has been.

I find it quite sad generally that "might" and "dominance" wiped the first indigenous populations and their cultures out around the world. Especially those for whom the land holds great meaning.

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:36

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:34

Your view is contrary to that of the United Nations and all international experts on the subject. I have linked to resources showing this. If anyone is misinformed, it is you.

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Please seek some support. I appreciate the conflict is difficult, but you’re being very harmful in this thread both to other users who may read your false statements and to Palestinians and Israelis alike.

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:36

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:34

Okay I actually am quite concerned for you now. Gazans are not Israeli citizens. Please stop spouting rubbish

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Gazans do not have equal rights, but are viewed as citizens of Israel by the UNHCR. Do you not know that the majority of them are refugees from inside Israel?

SomeCatFromJapan · 15/10/2023 13:37

Gaza isn’t a ‘country next door’ all Gazans are Israeli citizens living under apartheid

They are quite literally not Israeli citizens. They are Palestinian Authority citizens as this is the passport they will be eligible to apply for and travel under.

Gazans do not have equal rights, but are viewed as citizens of Israel by the UNHCR.

It's really not up to UNHCR to decide a sovereign country's immigration and citizenship criteria.

RedCrossSupporter · 15/10/2023 13:38

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:36

Please seek some support. I appreciate the conflict is difficult, but you’re being very harmful in this thread both to other users who may read your false statements and to Palestinians and Israelis alike.

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I have posted links to reputable sources supporting everything I have posted. As it is true and verifiable.

You have not. You have chosen instead to post statements that are the complete opposite of what the UN and other experts have written.

I wonder why that is? What is your motive here?

LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 13:38

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:21

The only reason there is any military presence near Gaza is because of historic actions taken by Hamas, an elected group who continually seek to genocide the Jewish people. Their rule is uncontested by outside parties. I suggest we talk about occupation next week when it’s a reasonable questions.

The blockade is not ‘occupation’ and is a very silly application of the word. Hamas have had the opportunity in the last two years alone several times to have the blockade lifted and declined. Maybe they’re sadomasochistic, but it’s a shame they insist the Gazan people suffer. Have you ever heard to the boy who cried wolf?

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Hamas want the blockade.

It allows then international sympathy and vast sums of aid money and donations.

They're using the Palestinian people as collateral damage.

Asthebellcurves · 15/10/2023 13:41

LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 13:38

Hamas want the blockade.

It allows then international sympathy and vast sums of aid money and donations.

They're using the Palestinian people as collateral damage.

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Yes. The roadblocks to prevent people leaving Gaza City for their own safety are horrific. Hamas will not lose their human shield. Unfortunately for so many Gazans, ideological propaganda that Hamas and others have indoctrinated in them has proven powerful. It is devastating.

Hamas are the worst thing to happen to the Palestinian people.

bendmeoverbackwards · 15/10/2023 13:43

@Asthebellcurves I agree. How the hell did Hamas get voted in?

kannayya · 15/10/2023 13:44

LemonyTicket · 15/10/2023 13:38

Hamas want the blockade.

It allows then international sympathy and vast sums of aid money and donations.

They're using the Palestinian people as collateral damage.

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Hamas wants is no more a subject here, as no one thinking about them. Can you please stop changing names keep giving us night mares!!!!

Reallifelurker · 15/10/2023 13:44

The blockade is not ‘occupation’ and is a very silly application of the word

Tell that to the UN