If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

[Poudretteite]

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

Gaza has its own laws, has distinct borders, maintains its own judicial system, has a military force. What more do you want? A veto on the security council?

The only reason Gaza became isolated was because they took their state and decided to launch a war to genocide the it neighbours instead of grow prosperous and happy.

@Asthebellcurves
Please don’t compare the indigenous people of America to the non-indigenous people of the levant, who do have a state and every opportunity to live peacefully.

The Palestinians are as indigenous as the Jewish people of Israel. For the most part, they are not returnees like the Jewish immigrants are. The Palestinians do not have a state of their own! The Oslo Accords were supposed to culminate in full self-rule and sovreignity but after initially signing up to it Israel backed out and refused that along with violating the agreement not to illegally settle on Palestinian land and not to forcefully expel Palestinians from their homes and lands.

@Reallifelurker "Anyway back to the topic of Israel cutting off supplies to Palestinian’s being a human rights issue…"

Then by the same token Egypt is doing the same. I don't see why Israel should get all the blame?

This is not correct. You lack even a basic understanding of Gaza status. It is not a state with any sovreignity. It doesn’t even have the devolved powers that Wales or Scotland have under English rule.

Azerbaijan is not neutral but very strongly pro-Israel (both in terms of government relations and general population attitude), and Turkey is largely neutral. I have seen the news over the last three years, but more importantly, I have professional expertise in the sphere too.

Egypt has been told not to by Israel and now the US has war ships right there ready to bomb Egypt if they disobey.

It doesn’t even have the devolved powers that Wales or Scotland have under English rule

Wales and Scotland are not "under English rule", what a ridiculous thing to say.

Egypt has been told not to by Israel and now the US has war ships right there ready to bomb Egypt if they disobey.

I suppose any of us could make anything up, really.

Then by the same token Egypt is doing the same. I don't see why Israel should get all the blame?

Who’s to say they do?

You clearly don’t understand nor have you ever been to Gaza. Stop pretending it is ruled over by Israel, everyone sees you are ridiculous.

You also lack any understanding of why the Oslo accords haven’t progressed beyond the initial area statuses. It’s because governance capacity, despite ample investment, has not improved in Palestine. It’s sad to see you deny Palestinian statehood, a position you’ve taken in stark contrast to most on this thread who acknowledge Palestinian Territories. You may find it useful to read some INSS and Aix reports on the corruption and governance challenges in Palestine.

Have you got citation for this? I was crying last night watching those walls go up on the Egypt border and struggle to believe the US has said it will start a war with Egypt.... can you cite please? Not being goady, that just sounds mad and I want to make sure I've got the facts.

This is completely made up, as it seems is the majority of your posting history unfortunately. Please do not use this very important topic for attention. There are a myriad of other threads you can chat with people on in a way that isn’t offensive to literally everybody involved.

“The international community regards all of the Palestinian territories including Gaza as occupied.[175] Human Rights Watch has declared at the UN Human Rights Council that it views Israel as a de facto occupying power in the Gaza Strip, even though Israel has no military or other presence, because the Oslo Accords authorize Israel to control the airspaceand the territorial sea.[69][70][71]” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

“Similarly, Israel has had a de facto border with Gaza since it pulled its troops and settlers out in 2005, but Gaza and the West Bank are considered a single occupied entity by the UN, and the official borders have not yet been determined.
The final status and contours of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem are meant to be decided in negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians living there under Israeli occupation, but decades of on-off talks have so far proved fruitless.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567
“We strongly condemn the horrific crimes committed by Hamas, the deliberate and widespread killing and hostage-taking of innocent civilians, including older persons and children. These actions constitute heinous violations of international law and international crimes, for which there must be urgent accountability,” the experts said.
“We also strongly condemn Israel’s indiscriminate military attacks against the already exhausted Palestinian people of Gaza, comprising over 2.3 million people, nearly half of whom are children. They have lived under unlawful blockade for 16 years, and already gone through five major brutal wars, which remain unaccounted for,” they said.
“This amounts to collective punishment,” the UN experts said. “There is no justification for violence that indiscriminately targets innocent civilians, whether by Hamas or Israeli forces. This is absolutely prohibited under international law and amounts to a war crime.”
“Breaking the cycle of violence in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory is paramount,” the experts said. “Armed attacks and military responses have already proven incapable of leading to security and respect for human rights of all. Restoring international legality, accountability and respect for humanity and dignity of all must prevail, including an end to Israel’s 56 years of military occupation.”
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/israeloccupied-palestinian-territory-un-experts-deplore-attacks-civilians

Please point out all the Israelis occupying Gaza for me, thanks.

@RedCrossSupporter 'The Oslo Accords were supposed to culminate in full self-rule and sovreignity but after initially signing up to it Israel backed out'

This is not quite correct.

In November 1995, Israeli PM Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir, an Israeli who opposed the Oslo Accords on religious grounds. Rabin’s murder was followed by a string of terrorist attacks by Hamas,
Barak the next PM then withdrew Israeli forces unilaterally from Lebanon and returned to the Palestinian track. At the prime minister’s insistence, President Clinton convened a summit at Camp David in July 2000, where he, Barak, and Arafat attempted to reach a final agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
Accounts differ as to why Camp David failed, but it is clear that despite additional concessions by Barak, the Israelis and Palestinians remained strongly at odds over borders, Jerusalem, and whether Israel would recognize Palestinian refugees’ “right of return.”
The summit ended without a settlement; Clinton would blame Arafat for its failure.

Please point out all the Israelis occupying Gaza for me, thanks

The blockade is considered a form of occupation

No this is not.
The Rafah crossing, which is the main exit point from Gaza not controlled by Israel, has been closed since Tuesday after Israeli bombardments hit on the Palestinian side, according to officials in Gaza and Egyptian sources.

Egypt has made repeated statements this week warning against the possibility that Israel’s assault on Gaza could lead to the displacement of residents from the enclave on to Egyptian territory.
Israel’s ambassador in Egypt, Amira Oron, said in post on social media that Israel had “no intentions in relation to Sinai, and has not asked Palestinians to move there ... Sinai is Egyptian territory.”
Asked about the prospect of displacement following a meeting with Tajani, Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry said: “Egypt was keen to open the Rafah crossing to provide humanitarian aid, food and medicine, but instability and the expansion of the conflict leads to more hardship and more refugees to safe areas, including Europe.”
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/us-in-talks-with-egypt-and-turkey-over-humanarian-aid-to-gaza-b1112943.html

It’s a military occupation. If you aren’t going to listen to the UN experts, who will you listen to?

@RedCrossSupporter "that it views Israel as a de facto occupying power in the Gaza Strip, even though Israel has no military or other presence, because the Oslo Accords authorize Israel to control the airspace and territorial sea."

The Oslo Accord collapsed in 2000.

@OhHelloTheres your comment about the rights of Israelis/Palestinians to the land - both sides claim they have rights to the land - it was originally the Jews’ but Palestinians have been living there for many years. But as one MN poster said quite rightly on another thread - aren’t we all living on land that wasn’t ours originally?

I am pro peace and care for both innocent Israelis and Palestinians. My view is that in order to bring about peace, one side has to back down even if they are in the right. It will never happen though and Hamas are not the sort of people to sit round the table to have a discussion with.

That wasn't what they said at the time of the 1937 Peel Commission. Their two complaints were that the most fertile land was being given to Jews (meh, Jews cultivated land very well... so...) and also that they objected to a Jewish state.

There was a pan Arab conference in response where they made clear their goal was to prevent the realisation of a Jewish state and where materials distributed were highly antisemitic

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloudan_Conference_of_1937

The only reason there is any military presence near Gaza is because of historic actions taken by Hamas, an elected group who continually seek to genocide the Jewish people. Their rule is uncontested by outside parties. I suggest we talk about occupation next week when it’s a reasonable questions.

The blockade is not ‘occupation’ and is a very silly application of the word. Hamas have had the opportunity in the last two years alone several times to have the blockade lifted and declined. Maybe they’re sadomasochistic, but it’s a shame they insist the Gazan people suffer. Have you ever heard to the boy who cried wolf?

It is correct. Israel backed out after signing by not keeping their end of the bargain.

”The peace process that the deal was supposed to begin has been stillborn, with Israel continuing its illegal occupation of Palestinian territory, and the Palestinian people no closer to – and some would argue further away from – an independent state.”
”The Oslo Accords were supposed to bring about Palestinian self-determination, in the form of a Palestinian state alongside Israel. This would mean that Israel, which was formed on the land of historic Palestine in 1948 in an event Palestinians know as the Nakba, would accept Palestinian claims to national sovereignty. The claims, however, would only be limited to a fraction of historic Palestine, with the rest left to Israel’s sovereignty.”
”The Oslo Accords were supposed to bring about Palestinian self-determination, in the form of a Palestinian state alongside Israel. This would mean that Israel, which was formed on the land of historic Palestine in 1948 in an event Palestinians know as the Nakba, would accept Palestinian claims to national sovereignty. The claims, however, would only be limited to a fraction of historic Palestine, with the rest left to Israel’s sovereignty.”
”The Oslo Accords witnessed a slow decline, with Israel continuing its occupation of Palestinian land and refusing to withdraw militarily from the majority of the West Bank while continuing to conduct raids into land considered under the full administration of the PA.
Following Rabin’s death, a number of Israeli leaders who opposed the accords came to power, among them current Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as well as Ariel Sharon.
A second intifada from 2000 to 2005 in turn led to heavy casualties, particularly on the Palestinian side, and made both sides less willing to agree to move the deal along.
Any attempt at restarting talks failed in the decade after, and the accords’ interim clauses have become the status quo.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/13/what-were-oslo-accords-israel-palestinians

I think this is very reasonable. I dislike historical arguments, and I think Palestinian supporters need to recognise it’s a failing tactic for obvious historical reasons. The reason the history is brought up by pro-Israel and pro-peace posters is due to the insistence of others that history started in 1948 which inappropriately frames the conflict.

Israel have taken the role of the peace builder, in the right but willing (demonstrably) to compromise. But you can’t clap with one hand, so we wait for a partner in peace.

Sorry what? Hamas didn’t exist in 1967 when the Israeli military occupation of Gaza started (and is still ongoing in the form of a blockade).