If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

[Poudretteite]

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

If I was making the calls now, I know that I WOULD stop illegal settlements in the West Bank and I WOULD NOT be breaking international laws of war and committing genocide against 2.2m people, half of them children.
And yes, I would get planning to slowly but surely pick off the leaders of Hamas militant arm - if the US were able to do it with Bin Laden, without murdering 2500 people on top, mostly women and children, then clearly it is possible to minimise civilian collateral. By minimising the civilian collateral you avoid radicalising a whole new generation.

I’m sorry if I offended you and I mean that very sincerely. I’m sure your little boy is beautiful 🌹

I don’t have an edit button for some reason, so sorry.

@OneHurtSpaggettio Thank you for apologising.

Mumsnet will remove it, so you don’t have to worry.

What you describe though is a concrete political goal. But both these groups I've described can, concretely, be advocating exactly that. The difference is why they advocate for it - everyone will have their own reasons for wanting certain policies. So both could reasonably be called Zionists if it is just about the concrete policy, as you say.

@MNHQ please can you edit my post to remove the word that has offended @Ameni? I don’t have an edit button to edit it myself unfortunately.

Love it you get all your information from Wikipedia and social media don't you. Even then you can't read or understand. What the very cleansed and not totally correct thing you googled says that none Muslims pay a tax in Islamic countries. This gives them the right to basic things. However they are not equal citizens at all because this tax dispute the fact they may have been living in said state for generations is way more than Muslims pay. It is a bit like the old East end protection racket in that sense. A larger scale version of the Kray twins. Give us most your money and we won't do bad stuff to you or let others do it. Plus in places like Morocco Jews had to wear distinctive clothes and shoes to make sure everyone new they were Jews. That isn't Islamic teachings the Morocco adlibed on that one.

so in a nutshell so to speak its

In some Islamic countries, there's a tax that non-Muslims have to pay for certain rights. This tax can be higher than what Muslims pay. It's a bit like paying money to avoid trouble. In some places like Morocco, Jews had to wear special clothes, but this wasn't part of Islamic teachings. ?

There are actually plenty of videos coming out of Israel where Jews are protesting calling for the death of all Palestinians, and that all their land will be taken. TikTok is flooded with them. I'm sure they'll probably be taken down fairly quickly though.

OneHurtSpaggettio

Oh I did notice you failed to mention the whole killing Jews even if they hide thing. Got to say that is rather telling of you in itself. Hence why I chose that one.

You have to admit kind of court you out there didn't I. Hence the false accusations you made. Have you been reading the nazi "Accuse others of what you are doing yourself". Very Palestinian, Iran and Russian properganda stuff I must say.

Sorry, can you just go through this.

Here are my questions:

What human rights do you feel Israel is responsible for providing to Palestinians? And how can they provide those if they are not the government of Palestine?

What do you specifically mean by "open air prison"? Do you mean that Palestinians are not allowed free movement ? If that is what you mean, can you understand Hamas have made it impossible for that to be provided?

By "children", in fairness, do you mean teenagers who were acting as terrorists? AI appreciate they have been treated in very poor ways but can you make a distinction here?

Are you aware of how many people are detained without trial in Palestine? Not whataboutery, but are you at least aware that it's a much larger number and amnesty says they are routinely tortured and held without trial?

Can you provide the data / citation for "thousands" of Palestinians who have been raped by Israelis?

Can you provide citation for "thousands" of Palestinians (mostly women and children) who are "tortured" by Israelis?

Amnesty (who are VERY pro Palestine) produce annual reports on this stuff and at least 70% of what you mentioned isn't familiar to me and the other 30% is put across in a way that isn't reflective of the full picture.

Can imagine there is. Not only will you have the normal small percentage of idiots that call for violence. You will have people that have lost love ones and that makes people irrational for quite a while.

Okay

So let's say that some Muslims are Jihadi terrorists who want to exterminate Jews and restore an Islamic state to Palestine.

Does that mean we can just say "Muslim" means that? Like a one-size-fits-all situation?

No.

I am sure some zionists have beliefs that are unpleasant, but that doesn't mean all Jews get to have the word redefined against their will.

A zionist is someone who believes Israel should exist and flourish. It means nothing else. If people want to insult specific Jews, they should use the words they mean and not hijack our identity please.

Kinda reminds me of when the British also drew the boundary lines between India and Pakistan. That didn't go well either.

My understanding of "Zionist" is

A "Zionist" is someone who believes in the idea that Jewish people should have their own country called Israel. This idea started a long time ago, and it led to the creation of the State of Israel in 1948. Some people think this is a good idea, while others don't. The word "Zionist" is used to describe those who support the idea.

can you correct me if that perspective is incorrect ?

I know these questions weren’t directed at me but my thoughts would be

What human rights do you feel Israel is responsible for providing to Palestinians? And how can they provide those if they are not the government of Palestine?

Not cutting off their water supply’s etc.

What do you specifically mean by "open air prison"? Do you mean that Palestinians are not allowed free movement ? If that is what you mean, can you understand Hamas have made it impossible for that to be provided?

This is a reference to the blockade. This was put in place in response to Hamas, yes.

Dedsec2023

Brief version yes.

Lots of rules and laws have been made that make Jews life harder Islam in some states though. From buying land to marriage to how they worship. Things in a lot of states are better. However the teachings that Jews humiliated Mohammed etc or the idea that Jews killed Jesus (They don't believe Jesus was the son of G-d but they believe he was a prophet) means that many Muslims hate Jews.

I can answer - human rights? Bit of a fundamental disagreement here. Many feel , like the UN, that because Israel still has remote control of Gaza that it is the occupier and therefore it’s obligations are clearly laid out and too long to mention here. But Israeli authorities are not meeting international law obligations here.

Open air prison : because of the control of prison also the control of goods in and the almost complete ban on exports. Yes I know Hamas …. but ultimately the blockade is against international law.

children in detention; Well many are held after unfair trials in military courts and others were tortured to confess . Even “teenagers acting as terrorists” have a right to a fair trial. Children have been arrested and tortured for throwing stones. Again all that against international law.

Cannot find number of Gazans imprisoned within Gaza from amnesty but also it doesn’t make it right that there are thousands of Palestinian prisoners held without a fair trial. Human rights? Not for them. Mad argument from you that it’s ok to hold people without a trial because that’s what their “government “ do. It’s not.

not just torture but the most comprehensive analysis on the situation is Amnesty’s report on how the Israeli authorities is committing apartheid against the Palestinian people. It details torture but also shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Israelis. The report aims to prove that their actions amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law.

Yes. That's what it means. It's in the dictionary.

For some reason people believe they can come up with new, horrendous meanings and impose it on Jews

Do you believe then that Israel should continue to provide free water and electricity to a country that voted in a terrorist government, which has the support of a large proportion of citizens, which recently carried out mass terrorist attacks and who’s sole agenda is to kill their citizens?

Do you believe it was Israel’s responsibility to provide free water and electricity to a self governed state for the last 16 years?

Do you believe that Gaza, having had the largest amount of aid in the world, should have spent that aid on arms rather than providing their own citizens with water and electricity? They already had desalination pipes didn’t they? Their own power plant?

Do you believe that Israel should have allowed free movement into its country from Gaza after Gazans elected a terrorist government who’s sole agenda was to kill it’s citizens, considering the Gazan government ‘soldiers’ don’t wear marked military uniforms, have a penchant for using women and children as suicide bombers and openly encourage a high birth rate to create a large army to kill Israelis?

That was before the horrific mass rapes and murders committed last weekend of course.

I guess the silly Jews were being paranoid and should have given Gazans free reign to do whatever they wanted and kill as many of them as they wanted. They should be used to it, shouldn’t they?

Very interested in your opinions @Reallifelurker

What human rights do you feel Israel is responsible for providing to Palestinians? And how can they provide those if they are not the government of Palestine?

No offence, but this question is delusional.

Palestinians face severe violations of international humanitarian law by Israel. The State of Palestine doesn't possess some of the most basic powers of a sovereign, namely control over its territory.

• They can’t control the flow of goods and supplies
• can’t control their access to water in the occupied territories
• can’t access certain life-saving health care
• can’t live in Israeli settlements in the occupied territories
• can’t enjoy the rights of citizenship
• don’t have the same due process and civil rights as Israelis
• can’t travel in, out and through occupied territories without restriction
• aren’t equally protected by labour laws
• Palestinians can’t stay out late

What do you specifically mean by "open air prison"? Do you mean that Palestinians are not allowed free movement ?

Absolutely. 2.2 million people blockaded by Israel in a tiny coastal enclave. Surrounded by 55km of eight-metre-high walls.

By "children", in fairness, do you mean teenagers who were acting as terrorists?

No, I said children. Often subjected to physical and psychological torture and interrogated without the presence of a parent or lawyer. Ahmed Manasra was 13 years old at the time of his arrest.

Are you aware of how many people are detained without trial in Palestine?

I know Israel holds about 4,500 Palestinian prisoners, without the right to a trial. Do you have details on your question?

Can you provide the data / citation for "thousands" of Palestinians who have been raped by Israelis?

This unfortunately is very common during war.

The Safsaf massacre is just one example. It's also well documented that Palestinian women are raped by the IDF to force them to confess to charges.

I am not meaning to be a prick, but objectively speaking: if people are trying to kill you, you will obviously have to lock them out.

Also, regards water supply, this is a bugbear of mine generally. While I think it's horrific they've cut of water supply now, I also think the world should put significant blame on Hamas here.

Some water is supplied to them by Israel as part of the Oslo accord but

50% of it is wasted because Hamas dug up the pipes to make rockets

They also stole all the aid money earmarked for desalination.

I'm appalled after 18 years of rule they haven't been fucked to even supply adequate water to their own citizens because they're more interested in killing Jews.

Hamas get off very lightly really. It's like everyone expects Israel to look after their citizens while they live in mansions and make plans to murder 🙄

@LemonyTicket this wasn’t directed to me, but I think it is important to address these two points.

What human rights do you feel Israel is responsible for providing to Palestinians? And how can they provide those if they are not the government of Palestine?

Your question shows a lack of understanding about the nature of human rights. They cannot be given or earned. They are immutable and universal to all people. Israel has formally accepted this, and yet continues to violate the human rights of Palestinians as well as international law. In that sense, your question doesn’t make sense. A government cannot provide human rights. It simply does not violate them in the first place.

What do you specifically mean by "open air prison"? Do you mean that Palestinians are not allowed free movement ? If that is what you mean, can you understand Hamas have made it impossible for that to be provided?

Regarding this, restricting Palestinians and therefore, also Hamas might be the most effective way of ensuring the safety of Israeli citizens. That does not make it moral or legal. Israel is a signatory of a number of conventions, which govern how state should behave. It cannot choose to disregard these because it wishes to value Israeli lives over Palestinian ones. Apartheid is unacceptable, the human rights of one group of people do not supersede those of the other.

@LemonyTicket additionally, Israel has legal obligations under international law to Gaza as an occupying force. It is still considered to be an occupation because Israel has effective control and there are agreements in place with the Palestinian Authority which cover Gaza despite it being under the control of Hamas. The moral arguments that Hamas should take full responsibility are irrelevant.

@MCOut I am married to a human rights barrister :) States, as in governments represented by ministers, diplomats etc, have the primary responsibility to promote, protect, respect and fulfil human rights. "Having them" as an abstract concept is meaningless. A universal human right, for example, is the right to peaceful protest. Palestinians do not have this right protected, because Hamas do not allow protests - Israel therefore cannot reasonably be responsible for the human rights violations over which they have no legal jurisdiction.

To make it easier I will respond to everyone at once.

HUMAN RIGHTS
As mentioned above, Israel cannot protect human rights for Palestinian citizens outside the purview of the control it has. Hamas denies it's own citizens of universal human right. They are routinely imprisoned without trial, there are enforced disappearances, they are not allowed to protest, they are routinely tortured. Amnesty has reported extensively on this. So no, Palestinian’s have very, very scant human rights but to imply that Israel is fully to blame is incorrect.

Palestinians who live in Israel and are citizens of Israel have all the same civil rights as Jews under law. Palestinians who do not live as citizens of Israel of course do not have those rights because they are not citizens and thus do not fall under the same rule of law.

However, Israel does have a responsibility to anyone within their territory or who may be subject to their jurisdiction, control or influence to protect their human rights insofar as possible and clearly they spectacularly fail to meet that obligation.

OPEN AIR PRISON
I think it's all well and good to speak from the comfort of your cosy lounge in great Britain, but personally, my view on this is that Israel can’t give free reign to people trying to kill them. Sorry, this is commons sense. Hamas' only objective is to kill Jews and as such in my view Hamas are 100% responsible for the blockade. If they stopped, the blockade can stop.

CHILDREN IN DETENTION
I have read the reports on this and it’s a disgrace. Israel should treat any and all prisoners in accordance with the expectations of any liberal democracy. However, it is also important to not say “they are capturing children” without being honest and saying they are actually teenage terrorists. Criticism has to be fair and measured and an innocent child is very different to a young terrorist. I personally fall on the side of believing young people who are radicalised deserve full protection - I thought Shemima Beghum should brought home as I don't think a 15 year old is truly responsible, but at the same time it's important to give the accurate truth.

APARTEID
I think Amnesty’s wording on this is hyperbole. Israel is a multicultural, democratic state in which Muslims / Christians / Jews have equal rights in law and where all can participate in the democratic process. There are Arabs in parliament and on the supreme court bench, in top jobs and so on. Incitement to racism in Israelis a criminal offence, as is discrimination on the basis of race or religion. There is terrible discrimination, yes, but I think the word is Hyperbole. However, anyone who insists it is accurate then must - in the interests of fairness - describe every surrounding country as an apartheid state too, because I assure you that in those, Jews are discriminated against in law in ways that definitely does not happen in Israel.

RAPE AND TORTURE
There aren’t any records of “thousands” of Palestinian (or children) being raped or tortured, so let’s leave that out. We can have discussions without hyperbole and needing to add in things that aren't true

i try to keep the terms factual to avoid mis interpretation when using information.