If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

[Poudretteite]

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

with our various intelligence services the "governments" im guessing know a lot more than the public do

It was imposing two states on an existing region that had been semi-autonomous under the Ottomans. It was decided by foreign powers despite the objections of the people already living there and their leaders.

That is why it failed. It was undemocratic and imposed by foreign powers. Not because it was a solution with two states.

I remember reading the I'm Jewish AMA on here and thinking oh wow as a practicing Muslim I actually have so much in common with other Jewish women. And I see some of the same posters who were very lovely on that thread being so indifferent towards the Palestinian plight on some of the recent threads. It's so sad it has to be this way. Where is the compassion? Where is the humanity

They always do :)

ah i see , that makes more sense, many thanks

Yes, New Kingdom Egypt which ruled the area then. But the Peleset referred to the Sea Peoples, who were refugees from the Bronze Age collapse and settled all round the Mediterranean.

Not the same ethnic group as the Palestinians or Jews who are both of Syriac origins over by the Caucasus mountains.

@LemonyTicket
Sorry didn't mean to tag you, it just won't let me delete it 😅

@RedCrossSupporter I'm confused.

Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt, where he spent most of his youth and studied at the University of King Fuad I.
So IMO he was Egyptian?

Netanhyu's mum was born in Jerusalem which at the time was under the control of the Ottoman Empire, so by birth she's Turkish. His dad was born in Poland, so Polish by birth. But as he is of the Jewish Religion then he's culturally Jewish.

Philistia was a confederation of five main cities or pentapolis in the Southwest Levant, made up of principally Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, (It was from this designation that the whole of the country was later called Palestine by the Greeks.)
After becoming part of Nubuchanezzer's empire and its successor, the Persian Empire, they lost their distinct ethnic identity and disappeared from the historical and archeological records by the late 5th century BCE.
So there is no-one living that has any original Palestinian DNA.

(Don's hard hat and takes cover)

It's not true though. The two state solutions was accepted by the Jews who lived there but rejected by the Arabs who lived there. They even rejected a proposal by the British in 1938 that would have given the Jews just 500 square miles. They would absolutely have accepted a State from this foreign power, with no democratic input, if it had been a state in which they would have been the majority with Jews continuing to be the minority.

There are many different religions living in Israel too. It's a very diverse and modern society. My gay friends holiday there and feel very comfortable. They wouldn't holiday at any of their neighbours' countries though - on pain of death. Literally.

Surely you also then have to acknowledge that Muslim communities all over the ME and Europe were actually celebrating the murder of Jewish people this week? There were speeches from Muslims in the U.K. about the killings being joyful and beautiful! I am no fan of the Israeli state and support Palestinian statehood; but I must admit I was shocked. I was expecting, for example, the Muslim Council of Britain and others to denounce the senseless violence of the attacks as not what Islam is about. It seems obvious to me that you can deplore the violent murder and rape of women whilst still advocating for the Palestinian cause. Instead, many many organisations put out press releases celebrating and justifying the attacks. There were celebrations in the streets - in London and Paris!

I found it absolutely shocking. I saw images of those raped girls, a corpse with broken and twisted legs being celebrated; and then statements were coming out from organisations in the West of why this was justified. Where is the humanity there? It has to be on both sides. Nothing will change if either side celebrates any murder of the other.

It is unbelievably wrong that there are settlers expanding into territory that does not belong to Israel - for certain. Netanyahu is a madman in my opinion. But it would be good sense to also concede that conflict has been going on for a hundred years now and that while that's happening no agreement is really possible to sustain.

I believe Netanyahu is a madman. Totally fucked in the head as far as I am concerned.

I believe Gaza should have an election.

I believe the West bank should too.

BUT

I worry (as do Fatah) that if / when they do that Hamas will win in both. Hamas could do in the west bank what it has done in Gaza. So where does it go from there?

While I am highly critical of Israel in many ways, 2005 was an opportunity for Gaza. There were plans to make it into a free port - with hotels, luxury beach resorts, an airport. There was plenty of aid money and international support.

The Israelis withdrew completely and they left behind schools, hospitals, infrastructure and even greenhouses for agriculture to grow food and provide Palestinians with jobs.

Hamas arrived within days and blew it all up, looted it, used aid money and materials for terrorism and declared it's sole aim to be to destroy Israel and kill every Jew in it.

Netanyahu has expressed for decades that he thought pulling out of Gaza was a mistake because he predicted that would happen. He claimed they should illegally occupy the territories to keep Jews safe.

I think to some degree Israelis might realise that and just think "what is the fucking point?" and so Netanyahu's right wing, terrible ideas took hold. It's very sad, but responsibility doesn't just rest on Israel for that.

You can't clap with one hand.

Peace means both sides have to want it

@sprigatito "no white phosphorus in civilian areas"

White phosphorus munitions can legally be used on battlefields to make smokescreens, generate illumination, mark targets or burn bunkers and buildings. Israel could be using the material to mark targets. Because it has legal uses, white phosphorus is not banned as a chemical weapon under international conventions.

Regarding the rest of your post how does that sort out the problem of Hamas, Isis, Hezbollah and other terrorist groups all of whom are bankrolled by 'legitimate' countries?

What this is describing isn't anti zionism then.

It's pro israel, pro palestine and pro a peaceful two state solution which is exactly what zionism is

From the front page of the UN website

peacekeeping.un.org/en

UN Peacekeeping helps countries navigate the difficult path from
conflict to peace. We have unique strengths, including legitimacy, burden
sharing, and an ability to deploy troops and police from around the world,
integrating them with civilian peacekeepers to address a range of
mandates set by the UN Security Council and General Assembly.

So,
why the fuck don't you ?
Anything would be better than this.

Or am I being simplistic ?

@asterel but I do condemn the murder of innocent civilians, whether they are Jewish or Muslim and so does everyone else i know. Most of the posters here who are against the Israeli government also do. But the nuances I am getting from some posters here regarding the current killing of gazan civilians is just like oh well tough, that's what you get for having hamas as your leaders

Jewish people and Muslim people actually have a lot of shared culture and heritage. I am Jewish and My sister is married to a Muslim and many of our extended family are Muslim. We are inherently brothers and sisters I feel

International humanitarian law requires that all precautions should be taken to avoid civilian casualties from white phosphorus, as it causes horrific burns and other life-changing injuries. Today Israel dropped it on Al-Durrah children's hospital in Gaza. This is illegal and indefensible - and it's very far from the first time.

No the actions of Hamas has led to the violence we are seeing. I'm not pretending anything. I'm giving my opinion which is as valid as yours.

They do receive supplies. Hamas takes them. Hamas takes whichever recruits it wants... do you seriously believe ordinary Palestinians have a choice?

I'm being realistic. You seem to be very naive.

@sprigatito "International humanitarian law requires that all precautions should be taken to avoid civilian casualties from white phosphorus, as it causes horrific burns and other life-changing injuries.
Today Israel dropped it on Al-Durrah children's hospital in Gaza. This is illegal and indefensible - and it's very far from the first time."

This has been denied by Israel-
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-13-23/h_9c4a97d32aa56c86a480b30f5f2e57e3

Hamas may take supplies. But it's not Hamas that prevents people from getting through crossing points to their jobs. It's not Hamas that bombs residential neighbourhoods. It's not Hamas that stops medical supplies from getting through. These are things my friend (who, like me, has zero connection or investment in one side or the other) has seen for herself.

I’m neither Jewish nor Muslim (or religious at all); but what we’ve been seeing this week regarding the murders is “tough, it’s justified and beautiful freedom fighting”, no? Imagine looking at the raped and murdered corpse of a girl with broken legs being celebrated as a spoil of war just because she happens to be Jewish, no matter that she was on holiday from Germany. That girl didn’t persecute any Gazans. Is it okay to celebrate her death as a symbol of the Palestinian cause? Because lots of people are, and I find that pretty horrifying. It is not the way to advocate for peace.

The situation of the Gazans is horrific. But everything in history tells us that violence does not establish peace. Hamas are ruinous extremists; why isn’t the Arab world — and the Muslim communities in the West — denouncing them and trying to oust them from the situation?

Thank you for an enlightening thread op.

I Wonder if anyone can explain why Egypt also has closed off its border with Gaza?

Can you not see what you are doing here? OP is talking about posters on here, who she said were lovely on another thread where they had commonalities. Specific people. Why on earth are you bringing in MCB or certain individuals in the UK or even communities in the ME? So many posters were accused of antisemitism and told that they (as in Jewish people) should not be held accountable for things happening in other countries, which of course is true. But you are then telling the OP she has to acknowledge what other Muslims/countries are doing? I'm not being goady BTW.

@feralunderclass

This entire thread is about communities in the Middle East, and the geopolitics of the conflict! That’s the entire point of it! If the point is “where is the humanity?” in relation to Gaza, then it needs to also be said that there has been little evidence of humanity this week in celebrating violent murder of Jewish people. Neither violence is acceptable as part of common humanity.