Page 17 | If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

Poudretteite · 2023-10-14T13:39:40+00:00

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide? Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

feralunderclass · 14/10/2023 22:06

And I've seen plenty of Jewish people over the years that have protested and called for "death to Arabs/Make Gaza a Cemetary/We want Nakba" but it has absolutely nothing to do with any posters on this thread!

MrTiddlesTheCat · 14/10/2023 22:12

Antst · 14/10/2023 21:51

Hamas may take supplies. But it's not Hamas that prevents people from getting through crossing points to their jobs. It's not Hamas that bombs residential neighbourhoods. It's not Hamas that stops medical supplies from getting through. These are things my friend (who, like me, has zero connection or investment in one side or the other) has seen for herself.

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Hamas are terrorists.

Willyoujustbequiet · 14/10/2023 22:13

Antst · 14/10/2023 21:51

Hamas may take supplies. But it's not Hamas that prevents people from getting through crossing points to their jobs. It's not Hamas that bombs residential neighbourhoods. It's not Hamas that stops medical supplies from getting through. These are things my friend (who, like me, has zero connection or investment in one side or the other) has seen for herself.

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Oh please. I have no time for apologists. Hamas are responsible for the suffering of their own people. They've taken medical supplies. They are the reason the border crossings closed.

I'm not sure how you can keep a straight face saying Hamas don't bomb residential neighbourhoods. I'm sure the children slaughtered last weekend were enemy combatants.

asterel · 14/10/2023 22:15

But I don’t think anyone on the thread has said anything equivalent to “tough that’s what you get if you have Hamas” about Gaza, either, have they?

As a secular person, I’m horrified by the rhetoric of all of it - both the situation in Gaza perpetrated by the Israelis, and the celebration and excusing of violent terrorists as freedom-fighting. (It makes me firmer in my personal belief that ideally no state should be a religious state, and that we’d all do better if there was no Judaism and no Islam, and none of the others either, to be honest). There’s a lot of blaming the entire history of the situation directly on Israel on all of these threads, but very little awareness of the fact that the conflict was partly caused, and continues to be sustained, by a lot of other forces in the Arab world and the West, too.

edited for typos

bananasplitsarefab · 14/10/2023 22:15

turbonerd · 14/10/2023 21:58

Thank you for an enlightening thread op.

I Wonder if anyone can explain why Egypt also has closed off its border with Gaza?

I suspect it's because they don't want an influx of refugees for a start.

The other reason is as simple as it is ignored by almost everyone: Palestinians are at the recipient side of Arab apartheid.

They are legally denied citizenship in Arab countries, including Egypt, and specifically excluded from immigration laws.

Palestinians have been massively expelled from Arab countries, In 1991 some 450,000 Palestinians were expelled from Kuwait:

In addition; Egypt realizes Hamas is cooperating with the Muslim Brotherhood and other terrorist organisations that attack Egyptians. They have stopped people at the crossing into Egypt carrying millions of dollars in counterfeit bills. In short, Egypt sees Gaza as being run be an enemy entity and undertaking actions detrimental to Egypt. Egypt’s blockade is far stricter and far more restrictive - all aid and materials go in via Israel since Egypt will not allow it in!

feralunderclass · 14/10/2023 22:16

@asterel I see what you are saying, but it's deflection. The poster wanted to address what specific local posters have/haven't said. You then said she would have to acknowledge what individuals around the world have said. It isn't on her to do that.

asterel · 14/10/2023 22:16

My post: But I don’t think anyone on the thread has said anything equivalent to “tough that’s what you get if you have Hamas” about Gaza, either, have they?

Ah well, I take it back - someone just did 🤷‍♀️

Parkingt111 · 14/10/2023 22:19

@feralunderclass thank you, I'm not as articulate as you and was struggling to put into words my thoughts but that is precisely what I was trying to say.

Reallifelurker · 14/10/2023 22:26

What this is describing isn't anti zionism then.
It's pro israel, pro palestine and pro a peaceful two state solution which is exactly what zionism is

It’s the view that the creation of Israel was problematic but it would be very unethical for it to be made to cease to exist. If such a thing were even possible.

I would attribute the building of settlements and the occupied territories to Zionism though. So anti Zionism in that sense.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 14/10/2023 22:27

i agree that there should be some way to find a two state solutions that works. And I also agree that what Israel is about to do is unconscionable.

But constantly perpetrating this propaganda lie that the Israelis are invaders and colonisers who have pushed out a native Palestinian population. It is just not true and repeating it only adds to tensions. It is not helpful and is a lie invented by anti-semites who hate the idea of a Jewish state.

Palestinian’s should be able to live in Gaza peacefully. But Israelis should also be able to live in Israel without fear of being attacked. But that would require a complete attitude shift on both sides (and for Hamas and Hezbollah to fuck the fuck off).

asterel · 14/10/2023 22:28

@Parkingt111 but you were writing about commonalities between Muslim and Jewish women, and then asking where the humanity is of posters on the thread about Gaza.

I have no religious skin in this conflict, but I can imagine Jewish women looking at commentators around the world failing to condemn the rape and murder of young girls, and feeling pretty shocked and horrified that this is seen as freedom fighting and brave resistance.

It’s both or nothing, isn’t it? It isn’t just Gaza; it’s also bombed schoolkids on buses and dead Israeli women and children too. Both sides need to see the complex histories, nuances and the commonalities. (This isn’t directed at you but at all the posters on the thread!)

Ameni · 14/10/2023 22:29

asterel · 14/10/2023 22:15

But I don’t think anyone on the thread has said anything equivalent to “tough that’s what you get if you have Hamas” about Gaza, either, have they?

As a secular person, I’m horrified by the rhetoric of all of it - both the situation in Gaza perpetrated by the Israelis, and the celebration and excusing of violent terrorists as freedom-fighting. (It makes me firmer in my personal belief that ideally no state should be a religious state, and that we’d all do better if there was no Judaism and no Islam, and none of the others either, to be honest). There’s a lot of blaming the entire history of the situation directly on Israel on all of these threads, but very little awareness of the fact that the conflict was partly caused, and continues to be sustained, by a lot of other forces in the Arab world and the West, too.

edited for typos

Edited

For clarity. Being Palestinian is not a religion. There are Christian Palestinians for example.

Gaza's Christian community mostly lives within the city, and around three main churches: Church of Saint Porphyrius, The Holy Family Catholic Parish in Zeitoun Street, and the Gaza Baptist Church. There is an Anglican chapel in the Al-Ahli Al-Arabi Arab Evangelical Hospital.

asterel · 14/10/2023 22:34

Ameni · 14/10/2023 22:29

For clarity. Being Palestinian is not a religion. There are Christian Palestinians for example.

Gaza's Christian community mostly lives within the city, and around three main churches: Church of Saint Porphyrius, The Holy Family Catholic Parish in Zeitoun Street, and the Gaza Baptist Church. There is an Anglican chapel in the Al-Ahli Al-Arabi Arab Evangelical Hospital.

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Yes, that’s true, and if you read all of the thread, I’ve been pointing out that Palestine was a historic region of many religions, and that Zionist Jewish immigrants used to call themselves Palestinian.

Hamas’s demands are for a specifically Muslim state in Palestine, though — “from the river to the sea”.

Ameni · 14/10/2023 22:34

There are Palestinian atheists.

Parkingt111 · 14/10/2023 22:34

@asterel I'm not sure what news you have been watching but most of the western worlds superpowers have condemned the attacks.

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 22:34

Reallifelurker · 14/10/2023 22:26

What this is describing isn't anti zionism then.
It's pro israel, pro palestine and pro a peaceful two state solution which is exactly what zionism is

It’s the view that the creation of Israel was problematic but it would be very unethical for it to be made to cease to exist. If such a thing were even possible.

I would attribute the building of settlements and the occupied territories to Zionism though. So anti Zionism in that sense.

Edited

That is you translating zionist to mean something it doesn't

Zionism is the belief in a Jewish homeland in the land of Israel or generally corresponding to it.

If you believe in that, they you are a zionist.

Ratsoffasinkingsauage · 14/10/2023 22:35

@Ameni

And what rights do those Christians have in Gaza? The Christian population is very vulnerable in Gaza because of the religious cleansing undertaken by Hamas. If we are going to talk about human rights violations let’s discuss what happened to the man who ran that last Christian book shop in Gaza- his shop was firebombed and he was kidnapped and tourtes to death by Hamas. Which just goes to show you how they treat anyone they consider an enemy.

Trulywonderful · 14/10/2023 22:36

asterel · 14/10/2023 22:28

@Parkingt111 but you were writing about commonalities between Muslim and Jewish women, and then asking where the humanity is of posters on the thread about Gaza.

I have no religious skin in this conflict, but I can imagine Jewish women looking at commentators around the world failing to condemn the rape and murder of young girls, and feeling pretty shocked and horrified that this is seen as freedom fighting and brave resistance.

It’s both or nothing, isn’t it? It isn’t just Gaza; it’s also bombed schoolkids on buses and dead Israeli women and children too. Both sides need to see the complex histories, nuances and the commonalities. (This isn’t directed at you but at all the posters on the thread!)

Totally agree

Bumbamtamytam · 14/10/2023 22:40

HermioneWeasley · 14/10/2023 15:00

The map is self explanatory. The idea that Israel is unreasonable having the land it does is preposterous. Yes, the way they have taken land has been unreasonable and I do not support the civilian death toll in Gaza at present, but the idea that tiny Israel should be divided up because there is nowhere for Palestinians to go is ridiculous.

Hermione, Turkey in this map is completely irrelevant. Turks and Arab countries have nothing in common, and this kind of generalisation pisses people off. Are Germans the same as Mexico, cos they're both Christian? It's not a Muslim country in that Turkish constitution is secular. Turks have nothing to do with either side, Turks welcomed Jews during middle ages, protected them during holocaust, we have loads of Jewish people and frankly, most of us like them a lot better than Arabs. I feel hurt when is see my country being bundled up as a Muslim country with Afghanistan in the same bloody (literally, figuratively) map. Islam in Turkey is Interpreted differently, we don't speak Arabic, our language is closer to Hungarian. We don't see ourselves even remotely close to Arabic world and don't define ourselves as a middle eastern country.

quiteoldad · 14/10/2023 22:43

" Turks welcomed Jews during middle ages, protected them during holocaust,"

The latter is untrue

Tiredandgrumpy31 · 14/10/2023 22:44

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 19:45

Why do people use this ridiculous comparison? This would be more accurate.

Imagine if tomorrow the British were made the only "white Christians" on the planet. And imagine someone colonised them and 80% of them were exiled to go and live around the world, and that in each one of those places they were massacred, lived under apartheid, forced to convert their religion on pain of death and even burned like witches. For say, about 2000 years.

Then let's say the 20% who were left behind in Britain were dominated by the majority. Told they couldn't be in government or the military. Forced to live in Ghettos. Told they had to defer to their masters in the street. Told they couldn't socialise with or marry with their new masters. Forced to wear yellow stars or similar to identify them as lower class citizens. Imagine rights of law were taken away from them, and they were told they couldn't testify in court against their new masters. Imagine if they were routinely beaten, murdered (sometimes in their thousands) for absolutely no reason and that children would throw rocks at them in the street.

Then a war happens and their "new" masters are toppled. And the British said "umm, okay, we don't like living like this so please can we have our own country?" and that this is debated for some time and while that's happening the 80% who were exiled and sent around the world have now, after 2000 years on ongoing massacres and edicts stopping them from existing in any freedom of any kind, have been almost completely exterminated by a lunatic gassing them in showers while the world stood by in silence.

So imagine the world says "hmm, maybe the British should actually have a bit of this country for themselves. Seeing as they are from here technically and basically everyone keeps killing them? Fair enough right?".

That is more accurate that someone showing up in Britain and asking you to give up your house. It really isn't on to diminish the reality of Jewish History.

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Why would your analogy be more accurate in terms of what I was trying to put across? I was arguing against the idea put forward in the post I quoted that it is somehow acceptable that the Palestinians have over the last 75 years been removed from land they were living on (continuing to this day) and their rights eroded by the Israeli state and that it doesn’t matter as they can just go and live in [enter any generic arab country] and therefore have no rights to feel upset or angry. I did not say that Jewish people should not also have the right to live on that land and I did not diminish the reality of last weeks attacks and the atrocities the Jewish people including my own family have had enacted upon them over millennia. You assume that I have because I have pointed out that it is not reasonable or logical to expect Palestinians to put up, shut up or ship out.

LemonyTicket · 14/10/2023 22:45

@Bumbamtamytam Turkey is such a beautiful country. I've been there several times and loved it.

Bumbamtamytam · 14/10/2023 22:51

quiteoldad · 14/10/2023 22:43

" Turks welcomed Jews during middle ages, protected them during holocaust,"

The latter is untrue

It is true. Turkish consulate gave many of them citizenship and trains were arranged to carry them over. In fact there's a movie documenting this, and the some academics established a university in Istanbul. I personally know the grandchildren of some who have built a car factory just outside Istanbul. You should do a little Internet search.

Trulywonderful · 14/10/2023 22:52

Zionism the right for Jews to self determine. To have a safe place to live. Religious Zionists have dreamed for 3000 years that would be Israel. It has been part of daily prays for 2000 or something like that years. So nothing to do with 1948 or just before.

Whereas Political Zionism is what most people object to about the current Israel Government and a larger number of American Christians (Trumps type of Christianity beliefs are that Jews need to be in Jerusalem for the end of days to happen!) This Politcal Zionism started if I remembered correctly in the early 1900s

Anyway Zionism that 80% of Jews whether Religious or not believe in is not the same as Political Zionism. Most Jews just want to have a safe place to be Jewish, a homeland for Jews. Therefore they are Zionists. Hence why the anger at all the antizionism isn't antisemitism stuff. Antizionism is literally saying Jews don't have the right to self determine and have a safe place to be a Jewish. People need to say anti political Zionism or just anti Israel government, which an lot of Jews are as well.

Reallifelurker · 14/10/2023 22:52

That is you translating zionist to mean something it doesn't
Zionism is the belief in a Jewish homeland in the land of Israel or generally corresponding to it.

But the building of settlements is motivated by the desire to create this homeland isn’t it ? Can’t think of any other reason for it.