If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

[Poudretteite]

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

@LemonyTicket
https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/11/1104792

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2021/07/12/un-expert-says-illegal-israeli-settlements-amount-war-crimes

thats also true, source's are like gold at times

But if they buy a house and land that an absentee landlord is happy to sell to them then that would be fair?

Or does the tenant not have to move because the landlord didn't sell it to the neighbouring landlord

Possession is nine tenths of the law

If they buy it, that is legal but that is not what has happened in Israel for decades.
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2021/07/12/un-expert-says-illegal-israeli-settlements-amount-war-crimes

depends on the laws of the country one would presume ?

You are missing the point here really. The point @Ratsoffasinkingsauage is making is that the Palestinian identity is a very newly forged one, where much of the people under this umbrella have a very mixed bag heritage and the idea of a "tiny distinct population" isn't accurate.

depends on the laws of the country one would presume
**
It’s a figure of speech
“ownership is easier to maintain if a person has possession of something and difficult to enforce if a person does not”

@RedCrossSupporter

Are you serious? Do you have any idea how offensive it is to take of migrating diasporas when the reason Jews FLED Poland in the early twenties was because of the intensity of the pogroms happening in Poland at that time.

That in no way compares.

And Arafat is Egyptian. He became involved in the Muslim Brotherhood in 1948 because he was an anti-Semite who couldn’t stand the idea of. Jewish state. It’s not like he ever hid that from anyone. He invented the idea of Palestinian people to create a further divide.

The name Palestine or Palestinia was first used by the Romans to describe the region of southern Syria. This is hugely different area to what is being contested now. Most of what was Syria Palestinia is now is Syria and Jordan. Why aren’t we campaigning to free those boys. Or is it just the bit run by Jews that the Palestinians find they want back?

You can’t really argue Jewish people have a claim to the area but Muslims don’t

It's lucky I have never done that then

Many anti-Zionists believe that the whole project of establishing Israel on Palestinian land was fatally flawed; it meant the Nakba, which underlies the current war and the decades of hostilities that preceded it, and that was easily foreseeable. Some also believe that the dominant post-war powers, ie the US, cynically exploited the horror and trauma the Jewish people had been through because they wanted a western-style satellite state as a bolthole in the Middle East, not caring that it was obvious what a geopolitical clusterfuck it would be for both Jews and Palestinians. All anti-Zionists oppose the illegal settlements and the constant annexing and vandalising of the dwindling remains of the Palestinian territory and the appalling atrocities the IDF routinely commit against civilians there.

I think relatively few anti-Zionists - western ones at least - believe that it is either desirable or possible to just turn the clock back and cancel the state of Israel. It is what it is, and there are several generations now who were born there, belong there and have a right to be there. Even people who don't think it should have happened in the first place generally accept that this is where we are. A fair, equitable two-state solution is what most of them favour now - and for Israel to be held to international legal standards when it comes to the control of basic utilities, civil rights and the rules of conflict that everyone else is expected to follow (such as no collective punishment, not imprisoning children, no white phosphorus in civilian areas etc)

Yes the name ‘Palestinian’ is relatively new name for an ethnic group of people, but that ethnicity is not new and their “mixed bag” heritage is no more mixed than the Jewish people. Both the Jewish people and the Palestinians have the same amount of ancient DNA linking them to migrations to the Levant (region where Israel is). The Palestinians are just as distinct as the Jewish people.

I will post this a second time:

What we now know thanks to ancient DNA studies is that around the period where both the Jewish and Arab peoples are first seen historically in the Levant region there was a major migration of population likely from what is now Syria into the Southern Levant, between 2500 BCE and 1500 BCE and by around 1500 BCE about half of the ancestry of the population seems to be made up of the immigrant population. The population of the Southern Levant as of 1500 BCE can be found making up the majority of the descendants of both the Jewish and Palestinian people today.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israelis-and-palestinians-are-both-indigenous-and-why-that-matters/

Yes. The illegal settlements, the land grabs, they’re all based in this belief that Jews have a claim to the land. Israel will not stop until they have ejected all Palestinians from the land, cue acts of extreme violence against Palestinians in the West Bank by settlers, etc etc etc

This headline from timesofIsrael illustrates well why the motives of Israel will never allow for peace, regardless of how Hamas chooses to operate

Then we retake Gaza:
Hardline minister hails repeal of West Bank
Disengagement
Orit Strock says eventual return to the Strip 'will involve many casualties' but it is part of the Land of Israel and must be resettled

Is this a complete joke?

No, it wouldn't.

It is factual that Jews originate from the middle east and thus have just as much right to feel the area is their "homeland" as a Muslim does. Particularly those who never left the area.

They are not dogs, to be simply put somewhere where they cause the least problem.

I am an Arab. I am middle eastern. We eat Arab food, we connect with Arab culture, we feel deeply connected to our heritage. I am indigenous to this part of the world and I have a right to my connection to it. As does every Jew.

Yet Jews have been ethnically cleansed out of almost every place in the lands where we came from. Libya, Iran, Syria, Yemen...almost nowhere has any of us left, and almost all these countries would not allow me to live there or to have rights as a citizen.

Imagine if Africa was cleansed of black people?

There is no justifiable reason why Islam has to dominate this entire region and insist on rule over every inch of it. It is not solely theirs. And they must accept that.

Jews have a right to live in the place they came from, free and in a manner of their choosing. Connected to the land brimming with their ancient history, their archaeology, their religious meaning.

Both Muslims and Jews should have this right in the middle east because the land is both of theirs.

Many thanks for your Analysis

You are mistaken, the Diaspora I was referring to was the one that resulted in Ashkenazi Jews living in Poland. I was not referring to Zionist immigration to Israel in the last century.

Arafat is no more Egyptian than Netanhyu’s Dad was Polish.

The name Palestine or Palestinia was first used by the Romans

So was Britain, or Britannia first used by the Romans. But you wouldn’t argue that the people named by the Romans weren’t there before the Romans conquered them. So why are you doing that with the Palestinians?

Completely agree with this.

I do too.

The whole world needed to do more to stop israel pushing settlements into the west bank, and to try and improve the lot economically, for palestine and encourage moderates into power.

In reality we have all done fuck all about settlements. Hamas actions are unspeakable, this violence is never justified, but internationally we all should have done more to prevent this escalation.

a fair, equitable two-state solution is what most of them favour now - and for Israel to be held to international legal standards when it comes to the control of basic utilities, civil rights and the rules of conflict that everyone else is expected to follow (such as no collective punishment, not imprisoning children, no white phosphorus in civilian areas etc)

This. We can't right whatever wrongs and injustices may have happened in the past. But we can prevent more, and no one has.

Many anti-Zionists believe that the whole project of establishing Israel on Palestinian land was fatally flawed; it meant the Nakba, which underlies the current war and the decades of hostilities that preceded it, and that was easily foreseeable. Some also believe that the dominant post-war powers, ie the US, cynically exploited the horror and trauma the Jewish people had been through because they wanted a western-style satellite state as a bolthole in the Middle East, not caring that it was obvious what a geopolitical clusterfuck it would be for both Jews and Palestinians. All anti-Zionists oppose the illegal settlements and the constant annexing and vandalising of the dwindling remains of the Palestinian territory and the appalling atrocities the IDF routinely commit against civilians there.
**
I think relatively few anti-Zionists - western ones at least - believe that it is either desirable or possible to just turn the clock back and cancel the state of Israel. It is what it is, and there are several generations now who were born there, belong there and have a right to be there. Even people who don't think it should have happened in the first place generally accept that this is where we are. A fair, equitable two-state solution is what most of them favour now - and for Israel to be held to international legal standards when it comes to the control of basic utilities, civil rights and the rules of conflict that everyone else is expected to follow (such as no collective punishment, not imprisoning children, no white phosphorus in civilian areas etc)

This

It's actually really sad. We are all here myself included arguing with each other over who should have which piece of land when there is an actual genocide taking place
The UN have said even their own centres are no longer safe places. How can people still support the collective punishment by the Israeli army of the people of Gaza
When will the powerful governments speak up? When its too late possibly

Yes, we are all complicit to some degree. Even Israelis have been protesting against the Israeli governments actions towards the Palestinians. Sadly, the Hamas terrorist attack last week killed one couple who had protested tirelessly for lifting the blockade on Gaza. It’s always innocents who pay with their lives.

The name Palestine or Palestinia was first used by the Romans

There are much older references to the "Peleset" people from bronze age texts which many people believe is the language root of the later term "palestine".

i could be wrong but was it not the two state solution by the un that started it all ?

Probably. I’ve emailed my MP over the week as have others.