If you are anti-Zionist, what do you think Israel should do?

[Poudretteite]

Should Israel open its borders? Be given back to the Palestinian people? Where should the Jewish people go? What about the high risk of genocide?

Interested to hear as many people over the last few days have said they are anti-Zionist and that it's different to antisemitism.

Sure it does, that the place you are born in no way denotes your ethnicity.

@RedCrossSupporter

Think carefully. Why were Jewish people moving from Poland in that time period?

So what would you prefer?

Here are the options:

a) Muslims have 100% of the land and Jews live spread over as dhimmi in apartheid being routinely massacred as they were for 600 years and the Kurds still are

b) Jews just leave the land of their ancestry completely, give it over to Muslim dominance a and become essentially extinct as natives of their homelands

c) Jews get 0.1% of the land mass and live in their own tiny country (this involves both Arabs and Jews moving in equal number - actually more Jews)

Which one of those options sounds right?

Can I borrow your crystal ball because I can't see that in mine? Thanks in advance.

The currently israelis are not "trying" to "lay claim" to anything. They have claim to it and it's their state.

I am arguing with the idea that the Jewish people of Israel are colonisers who ‘stole’ the land from ‘native’ Palestinians.

When a descendent of an English person who was transported to a penal colony three hundred years ago, returns to England they do not get to just kick an English person out of their home or illegally build a house on an English farmer’s land simply because they do not share the same religion.

It’s still stealing even though ethnically, the returnee is returning to their original homeland.

LemonyTicket, wouldn’t a Jewish State in America make more sense, it’s far away from Arab Muslims and there is the space to expand. All the neighbours will be friendly.

It’s extremely uneven, for one thing - fine and pretty accurate in some topics and disciplines; not always great in others. It’s fine for a quick informative introductory read; but I would always check it with other sources if I wanted to rely on it or use it to make a point. In some topics collective editing makes it pretty reliable (eg in the sciences); in others that can tend to misinterpretation, or partiality.

People are trying to argue that x% of Israelis are 'European immigrants'

Yes.. and no. Having bought DNA tests for the family for fun and run them through a number of different websites, I was interested that several had absolutely no European DNA whatsoever, despite a history that showed ancestors were living in Europe for over 400 years. All archaeological DNA matches were to the Levant.

Jewish people have been displaced over and over and over for thousands of years. Just because their most recent place of residence was Russia or Poland or Germany or the USA does not mean their historic ancestral homeland isn't Israel.

The idea that Palestine had "no national identity" was a construction of the early Zionists. By labelling it "a land without people for a people without land" was a way to deny the Palestinian people a mere EXISTENCE.
I am pro human rights. I am not against a homeland for the Jewish people. I'm against the occupation and the illegal activities that Israel has persisted in, against international law and UN resolutions.
I really hoped to have discussion about this. I lived in Israel, spent time with both sides and had really good debate there. I've been branded antisemitic by posters on this thread, so I bowed out. But I've read the threads, and it's very interesting that the posters calling everyone antisemitic for being pro human rights simply cannot acknowledge the human rights of Palestinians. Any question of the atrocities committed against them, the massacres, the confiscation of land etc etc is answered with "but WE have a right to our own state". I understand that. But why does the right of a Jewish state trump the LIVES of others?

I've constantly read about the generational trauma of the Jewish people, the "cultural connection to the land", the persecution of Jewish people, the right to be there as it states in the Bible (this person also said she's an atheist 🤔). All of this is true.

However, when it comes to Palestinians, the same posters say they can't understand "the fixation (of Palestinians) on the land", they had no connection to the land, were immigrants in the first place (so no right to the land). They also claim that the Palestinians can't forget the past, they need to move on. Their descendants have no right to feel Palestine is their home..."WE would never call ourselves refugees!". Someone up thread said "only 700,000 were exiled..." There is so much justifying of the human rights violations (and I'm not talking about events of the last week, it goes way before that).

The contrast is so stark. For me this isn't a Jewish/Palestinian issue. It's human rights. What you want for yourself and your children you should want for everyone. Don't award yourself a right that you actively want to deny another. We all have prejudices, and we need to examine ourselves. The cognitive dissonance is utterly heart breaking.

Why was Arafat’s family in Egypt? The same reason Netanhyu’s Dad’s family ended up in Poland. Diaspora away from the Levant didn’t happen to only Jewish people.

But if they buy a house and land that an absentee landlord is happy to sell to them then that would be fair?

Or does the tenant not have to move because the landlord didn't sell it to the neighbouring landlord?

Actually, Jewish emigres were pretty split on this in the late nineteenth century: some wanted to live in the original Judea; others thought that America was a better option (a movement called “Am Olam”). That’s one reason why America as a nation tends to support Israel: there were big waves of Jewish immigration into America between 1880-1948, too, so it’s one of the nations which has had a very large Jewish population.

Oh no I wasn't saying that.

I was just saying everyone was forced to move and lose their homes. It wasn't just one set of people usurped.

My family would have loved to stay home where they were in Iraq, they were not given a choice. They were also not given a choice about where to go when they did leave. Doors were all closed.

It was a messy business but the simple fact is the Arab world was very antisemitic generally, Jews were living in terrible conditions and a Jewish state was decided by almost every metric to be the best solution.

Yes some people lost their homes 75 years ago. It really doesn't matter now. And I say that as someone who's family lost their homes and land many times over. Both my grandparents and parents were refugees from Arab uprisings against Jews.

What matters is that people are enabled now in the present day to have safe and prosperous lives. And that starts with accepting the Jewish state and trying to figure out how to resolve the plight of Palestinians - which sadly has been perpetuated by the Arab world,

Jews were "evicted" from their lives across the Arab world and Europe in their millions. None of them are still there 75 years later bickering. They made new lives as refugees and got on with it.

There seems to be more interest in bickering with Israel existing and keeping Palestinian people in perpetual turmoil than there is with giving them homes, jobs, prosperous and safe lives and that is what actually matters.

In the United States, Jewish communities have always tried to be part of American society and get along with everyone. So, the idea of making a new Jewish place in America isn't something that people usually talk about, and it's not very likely to happen.

ive not understood the aversion to Wikipedia, yes it can be edited but if someone puts errors in the text and its a popular article its usually corrected quickly, that said other sources are also good as a comparison too, although i would not use it as a reference in an university essay etc

Yeah if you’re studying at university level or writing an academic paper you’re obviously not going to be using Wikipedia as a source. That doesn’t mean it’s useless though.
Multiple sources and critical thinking are the important thing.

To be fair, that is outright what Netenyahu has been advocating for decades. He wants to expand and will keep doing so until someone stops him.

thats very true

Im not arguing that Jewish people are European.
DNA tests have shown local admixtures of wherever Jewish people ended up due to the Diasporas, but they all have the same ethnic DNA going to the Levant circa 2000-1500 BC.

The Palestinians have this Levant DNA too. In fact there are lots of Palestinians in neighbouring countries in the Middle East and in other countries built on immigration like the USA, Canada and so on.

The fact that Arafat was born in Cairo doesnt make him ethinically an Egyptian any more than Netanhyu’s Dad being born in Warsaw makes him ethnically
Polish.

The Arafat post was arguing that Palestinians are “Arab immigrants” and not also indigenous, when they are.

It's bad enough having a useless UK government overarching Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England. This barely works for the citizens here, so God knows where you'd start over there.

Yes. Relentless land grabs and illegal settlements denounced as war crimes by the UN. That’s what they are laying claim to.

And your attitude is the real reason there can never be peace.

its debatable that bad in one, does not equal bad in another region

Thank you, I understand what you were getting at now.
You are aware that people have been (illegally) losing their homes continuously up until the present year under Israeli rule? It wasn’t a one time thing 75yrs ago…

I also think it’s very handy in signposting some relevant sources.

"And your attitude is the real reason there can never be peace."

to help me learn more, could you explain your thinking on how you came to your conclusion ?