To think it’s turning into genocide in real time

[Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73]

Just seen this on the news- how can this be right? It genuinely is starting to feel like genocide.

What Hamas did was beyond appalling. But this is also beyond appalling too. Its trying to wipe Gaza off the map. Over 500 kids have already died. Human rights watch have verified that Israel uses white phosphorus against Gaza, which is a war crime.

And everyone is just watching it happen.

“The Israeli army has just ordered the entire civilian population of Gaza to evacuate south within 24 hours. The UN says that amounts to 1.1 million people& applies to 100s of 1000s sheltered in UN buildings & their staff. This is impossible without “devastating human consequences”
Leaving aside the international law implications, I cannot emphasise enough how impossible this kind of movement of people would be. I have spent a lot of time in Gaza it is one of the most densely populated places on earth, there are pretty much only 2 roads south - along the coast and down the centre - they aren’t wide or well paved. I spoke to the gaza health ministry yesterday who said every hospital was overflowing. How would the wounded and elderly be transported? There is a massive fuel shortage how would vehicles drive? There would be no where for 1.1 million to go even if they got there. Rafah crossing to Egypt is not operational because of Israeli airstrikes.”

This is how Genocide is classified;
U.N. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

• Killing members of the group;

• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part"

The actions of both Israel & Hamas fit this description too. It’s just fucking beyond terrible. And it feels like some world leaders are just cheering from the sidelines 😪

We see it.

No it’s just going to flatten it instead. Killing as many people as it can. What the Israeli government is doing is not defence however much of their propaganda people have been duped by.

Jewish rights are human rights but ordinary Palestinians have human rights too. Ones which the Israeli government have been trampling over for some time, even before Hamas attacked.

If what the Israeli government are doing to the Gazan population is reasonable defence for the atrocity Hamas committed does that give Hamas the right to up the stakes again in defence? At what point to tit for tat atrocities stop?

I've just reported a new-ish lie in the hate speech compendium - Mumsnet have said it's okay because it's being challenged on the thread - the lie is now out of bed and will contribute to the conflagration

Once threads become under threat or deletion/have lots of deleted posts for some PP it's a green light to posting more and more inflammatory material because it's going to disappear anyway

Expect by this evening all the threads will be gone and MN won't tolerate the subject atm

Post-moderation doesn't work and pre-moderation is too labour intensive/gets overwhelmed

I would agree that distance does not necessarily increase objectivity.

My response was based on the posters appeal to emotion. It's entirely understandable that anyone directly affected or has connections with those directly affected is going to respond with some emotion to what happened in Israel last weekend. My thinking is not clouded by shock, grief and fear.

It's unhelpful for the Israeli government to use that emotion and justifiable anger to inform decisions on how to respond to the terrorist attack. They have decided to escalate from "mowing he grass" to "plowing the field", they can level Gaza and kill every last inhabitant and Hamas ideology will persist. Lots of people will die and the threat to Israel will only increase.

I can't support such an exercise in futility.

“They have decided to escalate from "mowing he grass" to "plowing the field", they can level Gaza and kill every last inhabitant and Hamas ideology will persist. Lots of people will die and the threat to Israel will only increase.”

In response, thinking about the theatre of war and strategy…

The strategic decision to bomb Gaza with heavy artillery is not to mow or flatten, it is to penetrate and destroy - the deep underground infrastructure of tunnels Hamas operate in, in Gaza, ‘next door’. This intention has been stated by the Israeli government.

The heavy artillery is to be targeted to penetrate and destroy the 500km of sophisticated tunnel networks under the city that are assessed as an ongoing risk. They are used by Hamas as factories to make weapons, to mobilise, to communicate, and to transport people, supplies and resources. These are not tunnels dug out with spoons.

it is often a strategic decision in the theatre of war to destroy infrastructure, communications and supply lines of the enemy.

The complication with this strategy is increased risk to civilians in this theatre/case - and the ethics that civilian life it to be spared as far as possible in war.

Hamas infrastructure has been built underneath densely populated areas and beneath buildings used by civilians.

As this tunnel network is an ongoing risk strategically, time is of the essence for the Israeli government.

Another aspect of this strategic decision to bomb Hamas infrastructure underground is to safeguard Land Troops going in to retrieve hostages and remove Hamas - safeguarding troops from surprise assaults and booby traps where possible which is their government’s responsibility.

"Mowing the grass" is a term used by the IDF to describe their usual strategy for keeping Hamas in check. Often this results in loss of civilian lives and has clearly not made a meaningful difference to Hamas.

Is there a reason you think I don't understand the stated Israeli objectives? You seem to think that a primary school explainer will help me to see things differently.

I think you can destroy all the infrastructure you like, Hammas will endure and Iran will use the loss of civilian lives as an excuse to start a regional conflict which will not serve Israel's interests.

I'm not a bleeding heart, just someone who can see the futility of it all.

Correct, @Enyo2. Many people seem to not know or understand this.

Attached is a map of tunnel networks in Gaza. Currently, it's north Gaza being strategically bombed - lots of tunnels there.

The Israeli Defence Force even drop leaflets telling civilians to leave for south Gaza. If a genocide is the intent, this isn't what you'd do.

If terrorist infrastructure is effectively destroyed, they usually aren't able to mount major attacks again for a long time, if ever.

Iran will not dare to attack Israel itself given the United States' formal warning.

Well said. And that user is not the only one.

@FOJN

Lets not fall out :)
We are all explaining things here. Like you explained to me “mowing the grass”.

I didn’t experience that as a primary schhol explainer even tho I knew about it already. I just took it as you contextualising your point. My intention was to contextualise too.

Give me the benefit of the doubt otherwise you can imagine all sorts of things about my intentions and take offence which I’m not aiming for. I’m really very well meaning, honest :)

I haven’t expressed my opinion or taken a ‘side‘. Just responded with some facts and analysis of strategy.

I do recognise that you see futility in it all.

Both Gerald R. Ford carrier and Dwight Eisenhower carrier strike group have been sent to the eastern Mediterranean Sea as a strong message to Iran.

"U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken - speaking in Cairo on Sunday after days of Middle East shuttle diplomacy - delivered a blunt message and a veiled warning to U.S. foe Iran: "When it comes to Israel security, we have Israel's back.""

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-boosts-middle-east-firepower-case-israel-hamas-war-spreads-2023-10-15/

Yes it’s been sent there in case the war spreads they’ve explained.

I completely agree with you OP. It's horrifying. I am disgusted by what Hamas has done, and with every story I read that disgust deepens but I am also disgusted with those making the decisions in Israel. They are acting as if the people in Gaza aren't even human, that the death of thousands of people don't matter provided Hamas are defeated.
I think the US and the UK are beginning to back track with their support and that will continue as the situation disintegrates and more die.
As others have said I don't understand the emphasis on defence, when the focus should be on de-escalation. I truly hope that that focus will be eventually be made and that a way out of this current hell is found.

@Everythingnotsavedwillbelost73 said: "nothing apart from the total destruction of Gaza will be enough for Israel."

This is not what has been said by any means as we can see from Reuters:

"Israel has vowed to annihilate Iran-backed Hamas - which controls the Gaza Strip - after its fighters stormed Israeli towns eight days ago, killing 1,300 people and seizing hostages in the worst attack on civilians in the country's history."

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-boosts-middle-east-firepower-case-israel-hamas-war-spreads-2023-10-15/

No release of hostages yet from Hamas, and no movement on that reported on BBC

The position of the Israeli ambassador to the U.K. isn’t really doing anyone any favours 🫣
https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1713811260662255910

Rishi Sunak has just made a statement in the Commons as had Keir Starmer which sets out the UK position.

At least 6 British people killed by Hamas.

199 hostages still not released by Hamas.

Talks on aid continuing

Israel bombing hospital this evening, killing over 500 in a clear violation of one of the Geneva conventions.

Are we still not calling it genocide?

Israel Defense Force say the hospital was hit not by them or Hamas, but by Islamic Jihad aka PIJ.

Screenshot of BBC News.

The IDF may say that, doesn’t mean it’s true.

the problem is who do we believe? Would Israel admit it if it was true?

@DownNative yea, of course they are going to say that. Totally reliable source of information 🙄

The IDF have spent the last week flattening Gaza and not giving a shit who they hit- along with depriving the citizens of Gaza of water and food- and now we are meant to believe that ‘it wasn’t us guv, honest’ - its fucking laughable if it wasn’t so utterly horrific!

Whereas the Gaza Health Ministry is a totally reliable source of information?!

Gaza Health Ministry = Hamas! 🤦‍♂️

See what happens when you start with Circular Reasoning?

Would Gaza Health Ministry aka Hamas admit if it wasn't true that it was Israel Defense Force?

The point is so many had a kneejerk reaction and blamed Israel whilst not being in possession of the full facts.

A name like "Gaza Health Ministry" might sound respectable and legitimate, but it's actually Hamas.

Again, I think a lot of people are thinking with a Western perspective as our Health Ministries ARE respectable so they automatically act the same with Gaza Health Ministry. 🤷‍♂️