To think we need to speak up

[BigBillyButterBollocks]

Loud. Fast.

I don't want to turn it into a Hamas is responsible/Israel is responsible. I don't want to turn it into a debate.

It takes 3 to 5 days to die from dehydration. Probably less for babies. Being stuck with 2 million people also desperate for water is gonna turn ugly. Then there are the bombings, no food, the lack of medical supplies.

When a journalist asked if the electricity cuts would impact babies in incubators, he was shamed for supporting Hamas beheading babies.

When a journalist asked if the siege was a war crime, the impact on civilians and why did all politicians present the attack as Islamist attack against Jews without any context about the Palestinian cause, he was shamed for supporting Hamas and the atrocities that happened.

When a journalist asked if the siege was legal, that labour lady whose name escapes me kept on repeating a rehearsed message of "Israel has the right to defend himself".

They all seem to have gotten a memo that you deflect any question with shaming and bringing up the atrocities against Israeli children.

Atrocities happened in Israel. It sickens me and saddens me deeply. There is no excuse for it. But it can't be used to avoid talking about what is happening in Gaza. I feel we are being gaslighted into not asking questions.

I want to believe they are secretely working on a deal but I don't think they are. And time is not on Gaza's civilians side.

AIBU to think we should be making a lot of noise for our politicians to stop defending the Gaza siege and start speaking up about this? NOW. Not in 3/5/10 days?

It is haunting me at the moment. I can't focus at work, I can't sleep. What the fuck are we letting happen?

Well, now let’s look at Hamas’s latest charter (significantly watered down to make them appear more fluffy)

The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.
19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.
20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.
There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity

21. Hamas affirms that the Oslo Accords and their addenda contravene the governing rules of international law in that they generate commitments that violate the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people. Therefore, the Movement rejects these agreements and all that flows from them, such as the obligations that are detrimental to the interests of our people, especially security coordination (collaboration).
22. Hamas rejects all the agreements, initiatives and settlement projects that are aimed at undermining the Palestinian cause and the rights of our Palestinian people. In this regard, any stance, initiative or political programme must not in any way violate these rights and should not contravene them or contradict them.

It goes on to say armed resistance is the way to achieve its ends as is Jihad. Maybe you should read the Charter and the original. - oh and it also refers to the “Jewish Problem” and blames it on Europeans.

Hanas’s aim always has been and still is to wipe out Israel. It has no recognition of any other people rights and connection to the land, it fails to recognise that Jews occupation of the area predates that of the Arabs., There’s no room for compromise in that Charter (or the original).

And do you mean decline to answer my question or you can’t answer my question. You seem very opinionated on what Israel shouldn’t do but can’t suggest what they should do

I’ve read the 2017 charter and also the opinion of experts on what is meant by it. They do not agree that Hamas current aim is genocide as you are alleging.

The Jewish people and the Palestinians are both indigenous to the area. Neither predates the other. DNA tests have proven their common ancestry with migrants to the area around 4,000 yrs ago as they are both Semitic peoples. Palestinians are not ethnically Arabs.

I think what Israel should do is a cease fire and the U.N. Security Council should oversee matters from there.

I didn’t think that being “very opinionated” on calling for a cease fire while protesting war crimes and crimes against humanity [which is what the UNHCR have reported and classified Hamas terrorist attack, as well as Israel’s blockades, illegal settlement, apartheid, Gaza siege, Gaza bombardment,and Gaza forced movement of populace] would be a controversial opinion to have.

@Maatandosiris
“In 2006 after the Gaza election, Hamas leader sent a letter addressed to George W. Bush where he among other things declared that Hamas would accept a state on the 1967 borders including a truce. However, the Bush administration did not reply.[159]”

”Since 2007, Hamas has fought several wars with Israel.[42] It historically sought an Islamic Palestinian state over the combined territory of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, rejecting the two-state solution.[43][44] Hamas began to accept negotiations with Israel and the 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007.[45] Many scholars reported that Hamas' 2017 charter accepted a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.[46][47][48][49]”

“In an interview in May 2010, Mashal said that if a Palestinian state with real sovereignty was established under the conditions he set out, on the borders of 1967 with its capital Jerusalem and with the right of return, that will be the end of the Palestinian resistance, and then the nature of any subsequent ties with Israel would be decided democratically by the Palestinians.[221][222] In July 2009, Khaled Mashal, Hamas's political bureau chief, stated Hamas's willingness to cooperate with a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict, which included a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders, provided that Palestinian refugees be given the right to return to Israel and that East Jerusalem be recognized as the new state's capital.”

”In 2013, after "several intense weeks of indirect three-way diplomacy between representatives of Hamas, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority", no agreement was reached.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

In 2015 “The prospect of a Palestinian state is nil so long as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stays in office, Netanyahu said in a Monday interview.
Asked by an interviewer with the Israeli news site, NRG, if it was true that a Palestinian nation would never be formed while he’s prime minister, Netanyahu replied, “Indeed.”
https://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/16/middleeast/israel-netanyahu-palestinian-state/index.html

Peaceful protests were then tried in the March of Great Return in 2018/2019 during which Israeli forces used live ammunition on protesters killing 223 protesters.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests

@Maatandosiris
Links for you to read on the indigenous status of both Jewish and Palestinian Semitic peoples.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israelis-and-palestinians-are-both-indigenous-and-why-that-matters/

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/history-and-civilisation/2020/05/dna-from-the-bibles-canaanites-lives-on-in-modern-arabs-and-jews

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/10/21/palestinians-jews-share-common-genetic-lineage/

https://news.arizona.edu/story/study-finds-jews-are-genetic-brothers-of-palestinians-syrians-and-lebanese

I see, you don’t consider terms like “the Jewish problem” or confirmation that jihad is a legitimate method to achieve the groups aims is problematic?

Presumably you would like the UN to ensure that Hamas is removed from any position of power and those involved in the massacre in Israel are handed over to the Israeli authorities to stand trial?

Welll what you’re saying regarding ancestry in the area flies in the face of Hamas’s claims. But we both know most of the claims in that document are spurious.

The correct thing to do is for Israel to hold the lands of the Kingdoms of Jude’s snd Israel which it basically does now. this should always incorporate Jerusalem - the site of itsFirst Temple (and second) before it was destroyed by invading Arabs who kicked off the long history of Jewish Persecution . As Islam utilised the city in their religion passage should be allowed to Muslims to their holy sites.

Since the Palestinians are members of the ICC, yes any Hamas member suspected of war crimes would be handed over to stand trial. You do know that Israel is not a member of the ICC and has refused to recognise its authority and so no one from Israel will be tried by the ICC? I would hope the U.N. would bring all criminals to justice.

Yes, both sides of the conflict claim to have got there “first” as part of their propaganda. That’s why I posted links to the unvarnished facts. You even repeated some of the propaganda yourself. I’m not sneering at you, I have been fooled by propaganda myself and repeated things I later found to not be factually correct. It is easy to do when we are in an age where information is overwhelming. So I make mistakes too and constantly revise my views as new information comes to light

I think your solution is one that is worth being negotiated by the representatives under the supervision of the U.N. Security Council. I cannot speak for the people of the region as to what they would accept for long term peace.

‘Cycles of condemnation’

This is people’s hurt, shock at Hamas atrocities. It’s not going to disappear.

Hamas crimes and atrocities will be spoken about, as they should be.

Of course there is common lineage in the area, it would be incredibly strange if not. What we’re talking about though is lands/kingdoms/states.

so why does the Hamas 2017 declaration state it is only them who have a claim?

How would you go about protecting Jews? They need their own land, persecution needs to stop. Only when Jews are not constantly threatened (and let’s face it, the main threat comes from Islamic state’s currently) cab any real solution be found.

it’s becoming increasingly clear that Hamas is being funded by external Muslim state(s) to destabilise the area to the severe detriment of Jews. How else are you going to deal with that?

Jews already have their own land.

ask yourself can a nation truly prosper at the expense of another?

Are Palestinians not allowed self determination?

Israel did not keep its promise of a two state solution and has refused talks.

nobody supports a bully.

And people's hurt from years of oppression at the hand of their colonisers will not just dissappear. They have been spoken about decades and will be spoken about for decades to come as they should be. Killing anyone's children is not the answer.

The words of the co-founder of Hamas -

https://www.deccanherald.com/world/entire-world-will-be-under-hamas-law-old-video-of-outfits-chief-mahmoud-al-zahar-surfaces-2724108

You can't criticize Israel because that's antisemitism. And questioning the definition of antisemitism is also antisemitism.

There's nothing anyone can do. Even talking about it in a more nuanced way than "I stand with Israel!" is hate speech.

Ridiculous comment. Many world leaders have urged restraint and the UN have called Israel's demands "horrendous". There's news headlines with the word genocide in them. No one wants to see Gaza carpet bombed.

At what point did someone say that Hamas are a great bunch of lads? I think that’s one point everyone can agree on.

We still need to speak up about the complete disregard the Israel authorities has for human rights right now. We don’t have to deliberate whether Israel is doing the right or wrong thing - it is clear that Israel is committing war crimes and it should stop.

UK could be complicit in Gaza war crimes, Tory MP warns

Pro-Palestine London protest: Thousands march as Gaza expects invasion

It seems like people are recovering from the shock and things are starting to. move.

Medias are starting to be a bit more outspoken about the Gaza/Palestine side and what is being done. Finger crossed this leads somewhere

https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide

Indeed. I wish even ONE Mainstream Media would call it out (but it is only a matter of time surely, Israel is being more and more comfortable saying clearly what their intention is. Someone is bound to refuse to be complicit and speak up.

Are you really that naive? How could Israel just rub along with a neighbour whose stated aim for many years was to wipe them out. Who use the phrase “Jewish problem” who state jihad and arms are the way to get rid of the “Zionist enemy”?

Given the persecution Jews have continually faced for millennia and in recent times particularly from Muslim states it’s not surprising they’re more trigger happy than most.

Of course no one wants to see what is happening happen, I feel for the Palestinians but Hamas needs to be routed out.

But it’s difficult to see any nation reacting differently if their country was invaded, men women and children raped, tortured and massacred. At that point it became a war.

Of course, everyone wants this over, of course it really didn’t need to start. There needs to be a solution that can work. This requires whoever is in charge of the areas around Israel to accept that the Jewish state has a right and need to be there. It needs to stop using language. Each side needs to become more tolerant. But the need for a Jewish state is non- negotiable, the current state replicates the kingdom of Israel and Judea which were the Jewish homelands until the thousands of years of persecution started.

I find your post absolutely chilling. Israeli troops have invaded Gaza, giving over a million people barely any time to leave what will be a blood bath. The city will be razed and Israeli politicians have refused to even confirm that enough time will be given for evacuation. Many more Palestinian children will die. There is no justification for such an act. A second wrong does not make a right.

Furthermore, Israeli settlers have been encroaching on Palestinian land as you will know while Palestinians live in an open air prison, unable to get in or out. These are ideal conditions for breeding revolutionary ideologies because they are oppressive. The answer is to address the oppression, not instigate ethnic cleansing. The world cannot support that, no matter how appalled it is by the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas.

And how do you broker peace with terrorists who want to destroy you?

I think that is a question that Israel should have asked themselves before they decided to lock 2.2million people up in an open air prison breaking international laws. We're they just planning on keeping them caged forever or was the plan to obliterate them? How did they see this ending?

Help is needed right now. Kier Starmer has spoken up about this. There really isn't any time to pontificate. Finally dawning on Sunak that we are witnessing a humanitarian disaster.
I don't think anyone without a crystal ball could really foresee exactly how bad this would get.
Yes the Israeli government has a right to defend itself, is clearly not obliged to fund an aggressor.
But what really swayed me this week was the lack of a ceasefire to evacuate and the time limit to do so. The bombing of evacuees, the lack of safe routes, at least initially.
The lack of facilities, a clear destination for people, basically refugees in their own country means that even if aid could get in it would be problematic.
I cannot see how Gazan people can take refuge anywhere else. Hamas are and their supporters are so embedded and invisible.

What I find chilling is you just seen to think a group in effective power cab work with another strongly anti western country, invade another territory beheading babies, rape, torture and murder civilians - men, women and children. Kidnap men women and children and do god only knows what and expect them to not react.

How would you like Israel to respond to this anti semitism? Do you think appeasement of Nazi German with their similar anti semitism was a good idea?

of course it’s terrible what is happening, but it’s happening because the jihadist, anti semitic terror group went into Israel and committed those horrific acts. Hamas are to blame here. They had the option to hand back the hostages but didn’t.

Little over a generation after the Holocaust what I find extremely chilling is the lack of understanding of the effect of invading the Jewish Homeland- which is there specifically to protect Jews from the sort of hare and genocide they have been subjected to for thousands of years.

what is happening now is the fault of Hamas and the Arab states who sponsor them.

its appalling when any civilians are caught up in wars. Every single war there’s innocent casualties. But history has taught us those that start these things (in this case Hamas) don’t care about the consequences.

I think you’ve kind of answered your own point. Hamas are so embedded and invisible, Israel needs to wipe out Hamas after the atrocities it carried out on its soil against the men women and children. Hamas are well known for hiding their arms in places like schools. They are cowardly jihadist terrorists.

After the appalling attacks on the men women children and babies on their soil Israel need to do everything to protect itself which means declaring war. It should never have got to this. The international community should have helped wipe out Hamas years ago. But once more we see appeasers standing by whilst Jews are threatened.

if Hamas has been given too much time they would all have fled the area too and taken their arms with them.

its appalling what is happening- but the fault lies squarely with Hamas and the arab nations who sponsor them.

So, what - they had it coming? That's not helpful in the current context of what to do next.

Israel needs to wipe out Hamas after the atrocities it carried out on its soil against the men women and children

If Israel kills thousands of civilian Gazan men women and children in pursuit of wiping out Hamas, all it will do is create another Hamas or equivalent. The hatred will be even stronger.