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To think its not okay to great gazans as israel has been

746 replies

LethargicButAwesome · 11/10/2023 21:46

Gaza has no food, no electricity and no water. On top of that they are being bombarded constantly
Israel has bombed the only escape route for refugees via Egypt, there is no way out
israel continues the blockage by air, land and sea - no aid can get in, no one can get out.
israel has said they will obliterate Gaza.

this is unprecedented, no matter what happens with governments or wars, you have refugee camps…safe havens…(often difficult) access to water - how are we even debating that this is acceptable? Am i the only person thinking this is the human race at its absolute worst? Its heartbreaking to watch, literally noone is doing anything - we are observing a genocide.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
65
Ahfeckingfeckit · 24/10/2023 20:47

‘Torturing, raping and executing other innocents has helped nobody either.’

again, of course not. I don’t think an Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian one, nor vice Versa.
unfortunately the Israelis clearly disagree.

Wonkasworld · 24/10/2023 20:50

Ahfeckingfeckit · 24/10/2023 20:47

‘Torturing, raping and executing other innocents has helped nobody either.’

again, of course not. I don’t think an Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian one, nor vice Versa.
unfortunately the Israelis clearly disagree.

Unfortunately the Israelis have just seen their bothers and sisters massacred. They've not really seen their lives worth much.

This tit for tat could go on and on. If not for October 7th, many lives wouldn't have been lost.

FlameGrilledSquirrel · 24/10/2023 21:01

Hamas knew damned well the Israeli's would kick off.

They want the massive response because it gets them sympathy and funding.

I don't think Israel would have listened to Western leaders saying show restraint. They would point to the post 9/11 reaction and then carried on anyway.

Keeping the dialogue open with Israel is a wiser policy than withdrawing support which frankly they don't give a shit about getting in the first place.

Wonkasworld · 24/10/2023 21:04

We know how Israel responds by how they dealt with their olympians' murders. This latest massacre was red rag to a bull.

ChickHenLittle · 24/10/2023 21:10

I have condemned the actions of the Israeli government in regard to Palestine long before now, for many years. I still do - their actions are vile. Horrifying.
However I do agree that Hamas must have seen this coming. Neither 'side' has acted humanely or reasonably, however it is evident that civilians aren't high up in anyone's (in authority) mind.

Wonkasworld · 24/10/2023 21:11

ChickHenLittle · 24/10/2023 21:10

I have condemned the actions of the Israeli government in regard to Palestine long before now, for many years. I still do - their actions are vile. Horrifying.
However I do agree that Hamas must have seen this coming. Neither 'side' has acted humanely or reasonably, however it is evident that civilians aren't high up in anyone's (in authority) mind.

Edited

Yes, I totally agree with you.

AGovernmentOfLawsAndNotMen · 24/10/2023 21:15

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 20:39

@AGovernmentOfLawsAndNotMen

I was replying to a poster who claimed that other people 'do not understand the Palestine Israel conflict.' She went on to explain that:

'Yes Hamas are bad but they are not the only problem. Go back to 1948...'

I asked why someone would stop at 1948 if they genuinely wanted to understand the conflict (and apparently explain it to others...). She said that Palestinians had been oppressed for a very long time but 'no ever batted an eyelid. It just shows some lives matter more than others.'

In other words, she was repeating the social media meme that the conflict is caused by things Israel has done from 1948 onwards and that alleged lack of attention to it is caused by racism.

I'm not discussing excuses, or anything you claim the current Israeli government aims to do. I'm correcting a false leftist propaganda narrative. It's important to understand the root causes of this conflict.

Ok
but definitely sounded like you were justifying the killing of the innocent in Gaza.
Especially with the dramatic posting of the badge worn by Jews.

Worth a note

ChickHenLittle · 24/10/2023 21:16

It's awful, I completely understand wanting to bring the plight of Gaza into the public eye and forefront in world news, I honestly don't know how it could have been done, I admit, as the world has a habit of ignoring such issues. Attacking civilians was never that way though, that's for sure. We've seen nurseries/kindergartens attacked in Israel, NICU unable to support over 100 premature babies as they're simply out of fuel and pretty much everything else in Gaza. It's just not right.

AGovernmentOfLawsAndNotMen · 24/10/2023 21:19

Wonkasworld · 24/10/2023 20:43

Torturing, raping and executing other innocents has helped nobody either.

Tit for tat. !!!!
An eye for an eye !!!!

The world has to stop this modus operandi

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 21:24

AGovernmentOfLawsAndNotMen · 24/10/2023 21:15

Ok
but definitely sounded like you were justifying the killing of the innocent in Gaza.
Especially with the dramatic posting of the badge worn by Jews.

Worth a note

Oh I've noted many times that the pro-Palestinian side becomes deeply uncomfortable every time I inform people about the history of the region before 1948. And whenever they have the opportunity they go for a 'sounds like' attack to distract attention.

ChickHenLittle · 24/10/2023 21:55

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 21:24

Oh I've noted many times that the pro-Palestinian side becomes deeply uncomfortable every time I inform people about the history of the region before 1948. And whenever they have the opportunity they go for a 'sounds like' attack to distract attention.

No discomfort here, I think many of us are aware of the history.

OhHelloTheres · 24/10/2023 22:07

@Pollyputhekettleon
Is this the point where we remind the world that the surrounding Arab nations were telling Arabs to leave their homes in what was about to be established as Israel in 1948? They told them to evacuate (I know, how dare they!) their cities and homes (including Jerusalem) so that they wouldn't be in the way when the Arab world attacked Israel. They left willingly because they assumed they'd be back soon, which obviously turned out to be incorrect. So Israel didn't displace them, the Arab leaders at the time did.

For what it's worth, I think the past should remain in the past and a two state solution be implemented. Settlers should be made to leave like they were made to do in Gaza almost 20 years ago. And then everyone should just fucking behave themselves so there can be peace. That is, of course, once all the hostages are returned.

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 22:12

ChickHenLittle · 24/10/2023 21:55

No discomfort here, I think many of us are aware of the history.

That's great. Maybe you can answer the question I've asked so many others without a reply then.

Given the centuries of imperialist religious supremacist oppression, from which the majority had benefited, would it not have been the most basic gesture of remorse for the Arabs of the 1920's, 30's and 40's to have let the Jews and Lebanese Christians have a couple of little states of their own?

Would that not have been the most obvious and trivial way to show the world that the Islamic world really did regret how the native people had been treated since the conquest? To show that they really don't believe that their religion is superior to any other and that they viewed everyone as equals. Especially since the Ottomans only ended the dhimmi system because the Europeans coerced them into it, one would expect the Arabs to have taken the first opportunity available to show that they would totally have abolished it themselves at some point.

And yet they refused to give the Jews so much as 500 square miles for their state, in 1938. And refused the Lebanese Christians their state of Lebanon too. Not an inch.

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 22:18

OhHelloTheres · 24/10/2023 22:07

@Pollyputhekettleon
Is this the point where we remind the world that the surrounding Arab nations were telling Arabs to leave their homes in what was about to be established as Israel in 1948? They told them to evacuate (I know, how dare they!) their cities and homes (including Jerusalem) so that they wouldn't be in the way when the Arab world attacked Israel. They left willingly because they assumed they'd be back soon, which obviously turned out to be incorrect. So Israel didn't displace them, the Arab leaders at the time did.

For what it's worth, I think the past should remain in the past and a two state solution be implemented. Settlers should be made to leave like they were made to do in Gaza almost 20 years ago. And then everyone should just fucking behave themselves so there can be peace. That is, of course, once all the hostages are returned.

It's not really a matter of the past and where it belongs. It's a question of understanding the motives of all parties in the region because those have never gone anywhere and they impact on whether or not a two state solution is, or ever was, possible.

Qatar, a literal Islamic state, maintains second class citizenship for non-muslims today. You can't understand why they fund and support Hamas unless you understand that. It's never discussed because they're a rich ally of the US, with lots of gas. And of course that's not unique to Qatar, they're simply the most obvious example because they literally host Hamas.

ChickHenLittle · 24/10/2023 22:19

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 22:12

That's great. Maybe you can answer the question I've asked so many others without a reply then.

Given the centuries of imperialist religious supremacist oppression, from which the majority had benefited, would it not have been the most basic gesture of remorse for the Arabs of the 1920's, 30's and 40's to have let the Jews and Lebanese Christians have a couple of little states of their own?

Would that not have been the most obvious and trivial way to show the world that the Islamic world really did regret how the native people had been treated since the conquest? To show that they really don't believe that their religion is superior to any other and that they viewed everyone as equals. Especially since the Ottomans only ended the dhimmi system because the Europeans coerced them into it, one would expect the Arabs to have taken the first opportunity available to show that they would totally have abolished it themselves at some point.

And yet they refused to give the Jews so much as 500 square miles for their state, in 1938. And refused the Lebanese Christians their state of Lebanon too. Not an inch.

I would think posters aren't answering because, not being Arabs from that time period, we don't know. I don't imagine it would have been so simple to give certain groups "a little state of their own".
I can say with certainty it isn't the responsibility of Muslims of today (to take responsibility for those actions).

If it were up to me, for example, they would all have their own land to call home, but I know it's not as easy as all that.

Displacement of Palestinians is just history going round in a circle. They aren't responsible for the actions of their forefathers. You would have hoped that society had progressed enough since those times to find a way for everyone to have their own state, but sadly not. Still oppression land grabs and displacement.

Wonkasworld · 24/10/2023 22:27

Some very interesting discussion.

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 22:32

@ChickHenLittle

I didn't actually ask you what Arabs at that time believed. I asked you a hypothetical question which anyone can answer: 'would it not have been...'

The answer is that of course it would have been the minimally decent thing to do. The refusal to do so, then or since, and the violent reaction by all of its Arab neighbours to Israel's declaration of independence, is evidence of a complete lack of remorse and of the persistent belief that land conquered by Islam can never be voluntarily surrended to non-muslims. As is the continued second class citizen status of non-muslims in Hamas-supporting Islamic states like Qatar.

I'm not sure why you're talking about what responsibility you as a Muslim have, or Palestinians have, in relation to it. I'm discussing the root causes of this conflict and the motives of all sides, motives which continue to exist to this day and make conflict inevitable.

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 22:49

As I've picked on Qatar a little too often, here's the much-milder but still religious supremacist Jordan. Non-muslims are legally discriminated against to this day in Jordan, one of Israel's neighbours:

Islam is the State religion. The King must be Muslim and the law affords primacy to sharia law.

Authorities may prosecute individuals who proselytize Muslims under the penal code’s provisions against “inciting sectarian conflict” or “harming the national unity.” Both offenses are punishable by imprisonment of up to three years or a fine of up to 200 dinars ($280).

Islamic religious groups are granted recognition through the constitution and do not need to register with the government. Non-Islamic religious groups must obtain official recognition through registration.

Recognized non-Islamic religious groups are tax-exempt but do not receive the government subsidies granted to Islamic religious groups.

Religious groups not recognized as denominations or religious entities lack legal status and may not undertake basic administrative tasks such as opening bank accounts, purchasing real estate, or hiring staff.

The government also refers to the following criteria when considering recognition of Christian groups: ... its religious doctrine must not be antagonistic to Islam as the state religion;

Sharia courts do not recognize converts from Islam as falling under the jurisdiction of their new religious community’s laws in matters of personal status. Sharia court judges may annul the marriages of converts and transfer child custody to a Muslim nonparent family member or declare the children “wards of the state” and convey an individual’s property rights to Muslim family members.
.
marriages between a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim man are not permitted; the man must convert to Islam for the marriage to be considered legal.

In accordance with sharia, adult children of a man who has converted to Islam become ineligible to inherit from their father if they do not also convert to Islam unless the father’s will states otherwise.

Per the ban on conversion from Islam under sharia, converts from Islam are not allowed to change their religion on electronic records.

Jordan - United States Department of State

Jordan - United States Department of State

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/jordan/

ChickHenLittle · 24/10/2023 22:55

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 22:32

@ChickHenLittle

I didn't actually ask you what Arabs at that time believed. I asked you a hypothetical question which anyone can answer: 'would it not have been...'

The answer is that of course it would have been the minimally decent thing to do. The refusal to do so, then or since, and the violent reaction by all of its Arab neighbours to Israel's declaration of independence, is evidence of a complete lack of remorse and of the persistent belief that land conquered by Islam can never be voluntarily surrended to non-muslims. As is the continued second class citizen status of non-muslims in Hamas-supporting Islamic states like Qatar.

I'm not sure why you're talking about what responsibility you as a Muslim have, or Palestinians have, in relation to it. I'm discussing the root causes of this conflict and the motives of all sides, motives which continue to exist to this day and make conflict inevitable.

You seemed to think an answer was required in order for posters to acknowledge the past and awareness of it.

I didn't say my responsibility as a Muslim, however your second paragraph discusses "a complete lack of remorse" from Israel's "Arab neighbours". I assume you mean the leadership of those countries, and not all of the population?

The root causes of the conflict have no bearing on the situation in Gaza. Right now, human beings need aid. Will such issues need to be discussed to come to a long-term solution? Definitely. None of it will be easy, if it ever happens. The main issue at the moment is to get the basics to those in dire need, to fuel incubators in the NICU, stop the need to operate without anaesthetic and provide fresh water, amongst many, many others.

ChickHenLittle · 24/10/2023 22:58

I really don't see the need to write out so many facts about Jordan.

AGovernmentOfLawsAndNotMen · 24/10/2023 23:03

ChickHenLittle · 24/10/2023 22:58

I really don't see the need to write out so many facts about Jordan.

Desperate attempt to justify genocide with long long historical posts

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 23:04

@ChickHenLittle

Don't worry I didn't type it all, it was a copy and paste. Aren't you interested in the persistence of nasty religious supremacism being enshrined in law in states surrounding Israel. Religious supremacism in which Jews, like all non muslims, remain second class citizens as they were under the Islamic conquest for centuries? One of the reasons they wanted a state of their own in the first place?

Oh I'm not asking for something as vague as awareness or acknowledgement of the past. I'm talking about the motivation for the repeated Arab refusal to give any non muslim population a state of any size.

It's funny, the pro-Palestinian side are very keen on understanding the root causes of the conflict going all the way back to the distant past of 1948 and the Nakba. But suddenly when someone goes back another couple of years, root causes have no bearing at all on the current situation. Remarkable.

Wonkasworld · 24/10/2023 23:07

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 23:04

@ChickHenLittle

Don't worry I didn't type it all, it was a copy and paste. Aren't you interested in the persistence of nasty religious supremacism being enshrined in law in states surrounding Israel. Religious supremacism in which Jews, like all non muslims, remain second class citizens as they were under the Islamic conquest for centuries? One of the reasons they wanted a state of their own in the first place?

Oh I'm not asking for something as vague as awareness or acknowledgement of the past. I'm talking about the motivation for the repeated Arab refusal to give any non muslim population a state of any size.

It's funny, the pro-Palestinian side are very keen on understanding the root causes of the conflict going all the way back to the distant past of 1948 and the Nakba. But suddenly when someone goes back another couple of years, root causes have no bearing at all on the current situation. Remarkable.

Leave her be now!

Wonkasworld · 24/10/2023 23:08

@Pollyputhekettleon, you know your stuff but sometimes you make my head spin. 😁

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 23:11

Wonkasworld · 24/10/2023 23:08

@Pollyputhekettleon, you know your stuff but sometimes you make my head spin. 😁

Sorry! No one needs to read it all, a quick skim will give anyone the general gist.