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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think its not okay to great gazans as israel has been

746 replies

LethargicButAwesome · 11/10/2023 21:46

Gaza has no food, no electricity and no water. On top of that they are being bombarded constantly
Israel has bombed the only escape route for refugees via Egypt, there is no way out
israel continues the blockage by air, land and sea - no aid can get in, no one can get out.
israel has said they will obliterate Gaza.

this is unprecedented, no matter what happens with governments or wars, you have refugee camps…safe havens…(often difficult) access to water - how are we even debating that this is acceptable? Am i the only person thinking this is the human race at its absolute worst? Its heartbreaking to watch, literally noone is doing anything - we are observing a genocide.

OP posts:
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Totalblindnessofthesoul · 19/10/2023 12:22

Meshigenus · 19/10/2023 12:05

Oh, how kind. You mean the 3 year old they kidnapped alone after murdering her parents? Or the 85 year old woman?
Or the 9 month old baby?
Ceasefire in return for hostages. Water and electricity in return for hostages?
Pretty sure israel would accept that.
But of course they'd also have to find all those abducted as many were also abducted by ordinary gazans who came to loot and take home their own personal trophies to sell to the highest bidder.

Hamas offered this...

All civilian hostages to be released in an hour if Israel stop firing.

Israel carried on the bombing.

Ps: yes we don't know if Hamas would have stuck to this, but it doesn't mean you don't try.

Ahfeckingfeckit · 19/10/2023 12:35

@Meshigenus not entirely sure why you’re getting your panties in a wad over my post re hostages.
and as for independent verification of what happened with the hospital, there are plenty of ‘neutrals’ examining evidence about what may or may not have happened. Neither anyone from Hamas nor anyone representing the IDF is a reliable source on that.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 19/10/2023 12:38

Totalblindnessofthesoul · 19/10/2023 12:22

Hamas offered this...

All civilian hostages to be released in an hour if Israel stop firing.

Israel carried on the bombing.

Ps: yes we don't know if Hamas would have stuck to this, but it doesn't mean you don't try.

I get where you're coming from and initially thought the same myself, but with Hamas having repeatedly shown they've no intention of acting in good faith we're probably beyond that now

Holding off for that hour would certainly have shown Hamas incapable of honour, but anyone paying attention knows that already so I'm not sure what difference it would have made?

DownNative · 19/10/2023 12:48

SnowflakeCity · 17/10/2023 18:35

I have to say as an Irish person whose ancestors went through actual genocide at the hands of the English I don't think I went knocking on Pollys door(assuming she is english) and said look I"ll just take your house and you have the garden she would be quite as understanding as she makes out she be!

I'm afraid you're not entitled to your own facts when it comes to the Irish Famine and not all opinions are equal either.

"Doyle Expounds Official Famine Line

It has taken a Government Minister, Ms Avril Doyle, to put Irish-Americans straight about the Great Famine"

  • Irish News headline and article on 14th December 1996

"The woefully inadequate response of the then British authorities and the misguided relief policies which they pursued are now well established in the professional literature of Famine studies. It was a rigidly doctrinaire and ideological administration, remote from the people whom it allegedly served and determined to pursue a programme of economic modernisation, even at the cost of thousands of people's lives.

However, it goes way beyond the boundaries of acceptable analysis to argue that there was a genocidal intent on the part of the British Government at the time and that the Irish Famine is therefore directly equivalent to the Holocaust. By using that argument, we are letting the British authorities off the hook. Their hands appear to have been clean but they certainly were not.

In my comments in America and elsewhere, I have made my position abundantly clear. The British response during the Famine was entirely inadequate, but the genocidal argument has no validity and this inaccuracy does a disservice both to the victims of the Holocaust or the Famine."

  • Minister Of State At The Department Of The Taoiseach, Mrs Avril Doyle speaking in the Irish Parliament on Thursday 19th December 1996

Avril Doyle was also the chair of the Republic of Ireland's National Famine Committee charged with organising the official commemoration of the 150th anniversary of the Great Famine.

"It is not good for continuing Anglo-Irish relations to term the famine as a deliberate act of genocide. What happened was more a case of appalling neglect and disinterest on the part of some of the reigning officialdom. Serious mistakes were made but there was no official genocide policy. It was really the manifestation of a laissez faire philosophy — let market forces reach their own level and, in the meantime, let the people die or try to survive, as inevitably they would. Certainly it was a philosophy that failed disastrously and for which we still pay."

  • David Andrews (TD representing the Constituency of Dún Laoghaire) speaking in the Irish Parliament on Thursday 19th December 1996.

"In the case of the Great Famine no reputable historian believes that the British state intended the destruction of the Irish people, and the Famine-Holocaust comparisons provide no support either. Yet one million died. Does intentionality matter?

It does matter, for at least three reasons. First, it directly determines the scale of the tragedy. It is easy to forget that had Germany not lost the war, many more Jews would have been killed, such was the strength of commitment to the Final Solution. By contrast, when the Irish economy recovered some strength at the end of the 1840s the crisis was largely, though not wholly over – to the evident relief, not only of people in Ireland but of British policy makers also.

But to narrow the focus simply to the role of the British government for a moment: for all the massive irresponsibility and buck-passing that characterised the five years of crisis, the state succeeded in organising public relief schemes that employed three-quarters of a million workers, and at one point was responsible for feeding three million people on a daily basis.

These are not the actions of a Government or a state bent on genocide."

  • Liam Kennedy, emeritus professor of economic history at Queen's University, Belfast, Northern Ireland and author of "The Great Irish Famine and the Holocaust" on the QUB website

"The belief that the authorities in London did little to prevent the Irish from starving underpins the recurrent claims of genocide from some quarters in Ireland and particularly Irish-America. There is a sense in which England "slept". However, two points need emphasising here.

First is that any worthwhile definition of genocide includes murderous intent, and it must be said that not even the most bigoted and racist commentators of the day sought the extermination of the Irish. Certainly, stereotypical images of feckless peasants and lazy landlords abounded. They underpinned an interpretation of the Famine as a divine solution to an otherwise intractable problem of overpopulation, and justified tough policies. If policy failure resulted in deaths, then (as in the Netherlands in the same years and in India and elsewhere later) they were largely the by-product of a dogmatic version of political economy, not the deliberate outcome of anti-Irish racism. In the late 1840s, Whitehall policy makers were no less dogmatic toward Irish famine victims.....Yet even the toughest of them hoped for better times for Ireland and, however perversely, considered the harshest measures prescribed as a form of communal medicine. A charge of doctrinaire neglect is easier to sustain than one of genocide.

Second, modern accusations of genocide underestimate, or overlook altogether, the enormous challenge facing relief agencies, both central and local, public and private, at the time."

  • Cormac Ó Gráda, Irish economic historian and professor emeritus of economics at University College Dublin as well as author of Black '47 and Beyond: The Great Irish Famine in History, Economy, and Memory

"One word, however, is not open to our usage.....This is the term "holocaust". When you see it, you know you are encountering famine-porn. It is inevitably part of a presentation that is historically unbalanced and, like other kinds of pornography, is distinguished by a covert (and sometimes overt) appeal to misanthropy and almost always an incitement to hatred."

  • Historian and author of twenty-four books on Ireland, Professor Donald H. Akenson speaking 150th Famine commemorations at the Ulster-American Folk Park in Omagh, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland in September 1995

Akenson is considered to be the "world's foremost authority on the Irish Diaspora." He lectures at Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada.

"In 1944 the Polish-Jewish lawyer Raphael Lemkin coined a new word, genocide, to describe what was happening. Four years later the UN adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Since then the term has been applied to other situations, sometimes retrospectively, for example to Armenia in 1915–18 and our own Potato Famine. But how appropriate is this? The key word in the Convention is ‘intent’. I’ll leave readers to argue whether this has been established in the Armenian case (see Letters), but as I listened to our guide, Vitold, relate the grim details of the Nazis’ ‘Final Solution’, I couldn’t help but conclude that, notwithstanding British culpability for the millions of victims of the Famine in Ireland, genocide it was not."

  • Editor of History Ireland in an Editorial in Issue 5 September/October 2015, Volume 23

"Dr Williams, therefore, sees the Famine as “Britain’s Great Failure” – a failure of public policy. It was not genocide, but equally it was not simply the result of a natural disaster.

Moreover, he emphasises that it was the Irish poor – not the “Irish people” – who were “starved and driven out”. For the Irish upper and middle classes, Catholic as well as Protestant, life during the Famine went on pretty much as before. The framing of the Famine in nationalist terms by John Mitchel and others – to quote Williams, “as England against Ireland, the landlords against the people and, by implication at least, Protestants against Catholics” – is wholly misleading, though sadly it remains part of our popular memory and still provokes anti-British sentiment both in Ireland and among the descendants overseas of those “driven out”."

Review of Ireland’s Great Famine, Britain’s Great Failure by William H. A. Williams on the Irish Catholic website

www.irishcatholic.com/the-irish-famine-natural-disaster-or-genocide/

Totalblindnessofthesoul · 19/10/2023 13:59

Puzzledandpissedoff · 19/10/2023 12:38

I get where you're coming from and initially thought the same myself, but with Hamas having repeatedly shown they've no intention of acting in good faith we're probably beyond that now

Holding off for that hour would certainly have shown Hamas incapable of honour, but anyone paying attention knows that already so I'm not sure what difference it would have made?

The thing is, what if Hamas had released them?

Would Israel have continued to have such strong world support for continuing and no ceasefire? Or would countries have started to say 'maybe now is the time to take stock and talk'. Because that's not what the Israeli government wants from the things they've said. To continue their bombing campaign without the 'doing it for the hostages' line would be far more risky from a PR perspective.

Maybe Israel didn't want to risk Hamas keeping their word...

Otherwise why not hold off for a simple couple of hours, so you can show to the world that they definitely definitely can't be trusted?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 19/10/2023 15:16

Maybe Israel didn't want to risk Hamas keeping their word ...

I do take your point, but wouldn't call that much of a risk personally - more a certainty in view of what's gone before
Interesting though that you increased it to "a couple of hours" rather than the one Hamas claim to promise. Why not 6? Or 24? Or a week, month, year or whatever, all while Hamas claim to be "making arrangements"?

As said, I suspect it's got beyond that, and though I've certainly got criticisms of some of the Israeli regime's actions it's hard to blame them on this one

Meshigenus · 19/10/2023 15:16

Hamas doesn't even have all the hostages. There were regular gazan mobs who came to loot the kibbutzim and kidnapped their own private hostages to sell to the highest bidder. Islamic jihad probably got their hands on a few too.

Meshigenus · 19/10/2023 15:19

First things first, hamas could at least let the desperate families know the fate of their loved ones.
There's one family where the dad and mum were killed. The dad was holding the 3 year old. The two older siblings aged 6 and 9 hid and survived. Mum and dad's bodies were found. No one knows what happened to the 3 year or where she is.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 19/10/2023 15:27

Meshigenus · 19/10/2023 15:16

Hamas doesn't even have all the hostages. There were regular gazan mobs who came to loot the kibbutzim and kidnapped their own private hostages to sell to the highest bidder. Islamic jihad probably got their hands on a few too.

You're quite right, Meshigenus, and my fault for not considering that

Of course it makes a nonsense of Hamas pretending to promise to return them "in an hour", but then it was always nonsense so I'm not sure what difference it'll make

Totalblindnessofthesoul · 19/10/2023 15:32

Puzzledandpissedoff · 19/10/2023 15:16

Maybe Israel didn't want to risk Hamas keeping their word ...

I do take your point, but wouldn't call that much of a risk personally - more a certainty in view of what's gone before
Interesting though that you increased it to "a couple of hours" rather than the one Hamas claim to promise. Why not 6? Or 24? Or a week, month, year or whatever, all while Hamas claim to be "making arrangements"?

As said, I suspect it's got beyond that, and though I've certainly got criticisms of some of the Israeli regime's actions it's hard to blame them on this one

The reason I said a couple of hours was to be pragmatic.

If it was literally an hour, then hamas could say that by the time the message got through, they distributed it etc, it was too late, and then Israel started up again (hamas in its 'offer' ' said that they couldn't release them safely because of the bombing). Some people would say that Hamas would have still done it, that Israel should have waited a little longer.

2 hours is double what Hamas asked for, and if that hadn't managed to produce the hostages in twice the time asked for, their intentions would have been far clearer for all to see. Israel could then go 'I told you so' in a more meaningful way.

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 02:37

The sad irony is that Hamas murdered or kidnapped so many beautiful people who worked tireleslly to promote co-existence and a peaceful solution.
But, then again, hamas is just pure hatred and religious extermism. Peace activists - Palestinian or Israeli - are more of a threat to them and their cause than right-wing extremist settlers.

Coughingdodger · 20/10/2023 08:57

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 02:37

The sad irony is that Hamas murdered or kidnapped so many beautiful people who worked tireleslly to promote co-existence and a peaceful solution.
But, then again, hamas is just pure hatred and religious extermism. Peace activists - Palestinian or Israeli - are more of a threat to them and their cause than right-wing extremist settlers.

So you agree with the Israeli and Jewish peace activists who want Israel to stop the current bombing and blockade in Gaza?

Coughingdodger · 20/10/2023 08:58

Including several relatives of the hostages who have spoken out?

OhHelloTheres · 20/10/2023 09:06

Let's just clear one thing up - Hamas were only saying they would release the civilian hostages. They have plenty that are soldiers or that they wouldn't consider civilian eg anyone male.

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 09:12

Coughingdodger · 20/10/2023 08:57

So you agree with the Israeli and Jewish peace activists who want Israel to stop the current bombing and blockade in Gaza?

I respect their voices and think it's important to hear them and, since israel is a democracy, it is important to make the space for them to voice their views, even in time of war. Many of them are personal friends of mine and I admire them greatly.

Whether I agree with them completely? I can honestly say I don't know, especially with Hizbollah watching very carefully and trying to ignite thenorthern border . THe idea of a gound invasion is terrifying but there might not be any other choice. This is not a border skirmish between Denmark adn Sweden.

I certainly don't believe that revenge should be government policy and I don't believe in collective punishment. I also believe that the only sustainable solution is a political and not a military one. And I also believe that any military operation needs to be implemented with an eye to the day after the way - if Hamas is gone, who will be responsible for adminstering 2 million people? Israel? The PA?

THe loss of innocent Palestinian lives is tragic and Israel has a responsibility to minimize these casualties as much as possible. But when fighting an emeny who is embedded in the civiliian population and operates with no regard for their safety (as we saw with the Islamic Jihad missile on the hospital) or, even worse, cynically using civillians and civillian facilities to further their own aims - it seems almost unavoidable.

But from these thoughts to calling for an end to the operations and leaving Hamas to carry on operating, given that they present such a threat to Israel? I am honestly not sure.

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 09:23

OhHelloTheres · 20/10/2023 09:06

Let's just clear one thing up - Hamas were only saying they would release the civilian hostages. They have plenty that are soldiers or that they wouldn't consider civilian eg anyone male.

Hamas has also stated that there are no civillians in Israel. Everyone is a legitimate military target according to their warped world view. So perhaps, they are talking about the 20-odd Thai labourers who they also kidnapped (and massacred including beheading with a spade)?

Efacsen · 20/10/2023 09:29

OhHelloTheres · 20/10/2023 09:06

Let's just clear one thing up - Hamas were only saying they would release the civilian hostages. They have plenty that are soldiers or that they wouldn't consider civilian eg anyone male.

That's right the hostage negotiations in Turkey and Qatar are only about the women. children and elderly

And all the hostages [and humanitarian aid] are down the list of IDF priorities atm after they've dealt with the 2 Hamas who masterminded the terror attack on Israel and destroyed the Hamas tunnel system

EasternStandard · 20/10/2023 09:31

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 09:23

Hamas has also stated that there are no civillians in Israel. Everyone is a legitimate military target according to their warped world view. So perhaps, they are talking about the 20-odd Thai labourers who they also kidnapped (and massacred including beheading with a spade)?

What a threat to live next to, as civilians. Horrific

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 09:35

What about all the hostages NOT in Hamas' hands?
You know, the ones kidnapped by Gazan mobs who came to loot, rape and kidnap their own private hostages to sell to the highest bidder?
Maybe Hamas can actually let the desperate families know who they have and who they don't?
Like the family of the 3 year old girl whose parents were murdered and whose 6 and 9 year old siblings survived by hiding in a closet. She was in her father's arms when the terrorists entered. The mother's body was left in the room, the father's found outside. And the 3 year old girl? No one knows where she is!!!! It would be the smallest gesture of Hamas to at least let the families know who is being held and what their condition is. But nope.

DownNative · 20/10/2023 09:40

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 09:12

I respect their voices and think it's important to hear them and, since israel is a democracy, it is important to make the space for them to voice their views, even in time of war. Many of them are personal friends of mine and I admire them greatly.

Whether I agree with them completely? I can honestly say I don't know, especially with Hizbollah watching very carefully and trying to ignite thenorthern border . THe idea of a gound invasion is terrifying but there might not be any other choice. This is not a border skirmish between Denmark adn Sweden.

I certainly don't believe that revenge should be government policy and I don't believe in collective punishment. I also believe that the only sustainable solution is a political and not a military one. And I also believe that any military operation needs to be implemented with an eye to the day after the way - if Hamas is gone, who will be responsible for adminstering 2 million people? Israel? The PA?

THe loss of innocent Palestinian lives is tragic and Israel has a responsibility to minimize these casualties as much as possible. But when fighting an emeny who is embedded in the civiliian population and operates with no regard for their safety (as we saw with the Islamic Jihad missile on the hospital) or, even worse, cynically using civillians and civillian facilities to further their own aims - it seems almost unavoidable.

But from these thoughts to calling for an end to the operations and leaving Hamas to carry on operating, given that they present such a threat to Israel? I am honestly not sure.

Nicely set out.

I'd add one thing - any sustainable political settlement goes hand in hand with a military solution.

It's idealistic for anyone to act as though they don't. Without it, a terrorist group has no real incentive to engage in negotiations and will simply say the talks is about shoring up a Government’s, in their eyes, crumbling authority.

So it goes together. Known as a Whole Of Government Approach in political & security circles.

DownNative · 20/10/2023 09:52

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 09:23

Hamas has also stated that there are no civillians in Israel. Everyone is a legitimate military target according to their warped world view. So perhaps, they are talking about the 20-odd Thai labourers who they also kidnapped (and massacred including beheading with a spade)?

Absolutely. Standard MO of a terrorist group is to view civilians as legitimate targets even though the definition of a civilian under International Humanitarian Law is someone who is not in an armed force.

Ex soldiers are, therefore, not legitimate targets. They are civilians as are police officers.

A civilian who engages in hostilities loses civilian protection temporarily too. Another tactic of a terrorist group.

Terrorists are NOT civilians since they belong to a terrorist group.

As I said, terrorist organisations don't care for these laws. International law always evolves in accordance with the threat. 21st Century terrorism is outpacing current law so eventually International law will change too.

They're not set.

SammyScrounge · 20/10/2023 22:48

Lesina · 11/10/2023 23:16

Egypt needs to open the border and allow Palestinians to leave. Set up camps and house fleeing refugees.
Hamas knew without doubt what Israel’s response would be. Hamas have inflicted this on the Palestinian people.
Everyone should go and visit Auschwitz and gain some insight to Israel’s stance of ‘never again’.
Let Egypt open her border.

Egypt doesn't want a couple of million refugees in their territory. Feeding , housing, care would be an impossible effort. And then there's the problem of Hamas who will probably slip in too. No one wants those lunatics.

Dontwanttowaitanymore · 23/10/2023 08:57

I can’t bear to watch what’s happening in Gaza and I don’t want to be associated with the British Government saying we support Israel doing this. The terrorists actions were appalling and this is worse.

Wonkasworld · 23/10/2023 12:22

Dontwanttowaitanymore · 23/10/2023 08:57

I can’t bear to watch what’s happening in Gaza and I don’t want to be associated with the British Government saying we support Israel doing this. The terrorists actions were appalling and this is worse.

Worse? I don't think so.