To be against the attacks on Palestine

[Threemangoes]

What happened in Israel was horrific by Hamas. But why are Palestinians being restricted, bombed, dehydrated and deprived of basic needs because of terrorists? Why is the world supporting Israel commiting war crimes?

Hamas are sick fucks to kill innocents. But it's like history repeating again. 9/11 caused millions of Iraqis killed for what?

Have we learned nothing from the past???

@SideBob Your faux ignorance isn’t amusing. Hamas are a terrorist organisation, but you knew that.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Some more interesting facts.

Elected to power by the people of Gaza.

Yes, yes we know Hamas stopped holding elections since then but that is hardly surprising considering their ideology.

On a related note, reading this thread it is quite amazing the length posters will go to to distinguish between Gaza and the Gazan government, while simultaneously holding all Israelis responsible for the actions of theirs.

Well all Jewish Israelis (and often just Jews in general) anyway, they just ignore the fact that 20% of Israeli citizens are Palestinian / Arab.

Elected in 2006 in an attempt by the people to vote against corruption. That doesn't mean anyone would vote for them now. I mean, look at the tories in that same time span. Lots of people would say they didn't get what they voted for.

Please see the article above.

Also, I’m very sure most ordinary Israeli’s know there’s huge suffering within the Gazan community. Anything said on this thread has been to pro Israel (no idea where they’re from) posters who agree with you. Not to the ordinary Israeli people that long for fairness and peace.

@Green777

"@1dayatatime do you think the UN is correct in their stance against how Israel are conducting the revenge? Or do you think them condemning the breaking of international law and war crimes incorrect? Please answer with a yes or a no."

+++

Without knowing specifically what UN stance or statement you are referring to then it not possible to accurately answer your question.

However I suggest that we go with the latest UN statement (or stance if you prefer) of:

"There is no justification for violence that indiscriminately targets innocent civilians, whether by Hamas or Israeli forces. This is absolutely prohibited under international law and amounts to a war crime.”

Now I can clearly state that yes I agree with this statement.

The issue you then get into is

A) are the Israeli Government through their army indiscriminately targeting innocent civilians - the Israeli Gov of course will say that no they are not and that they are doing everything to minimise civilian casualties but that in any war especially given the population density of Gaza civilian deaths are unavoidable. Equally others will argue that the Israeli Gov is indeed indiscriminately targeting civilians. The only entities that can definitively answer this are the Israeli Gov and Hamas both of which have vested interest so it will be based on opinion rather than facts.

B) Did the Hamas terrorists indiscriminately target innocent civilians? I would argue that the attacks on innocent civilians were not indiscriminate but deliberately targeting innocent civilians with facts and evidence backing this up.

So to conclude yes I do agree with the above UN statement. Hamas definitely broke international law and committed war crimes. Whether the Israeli Gov is doing the same is impossible to answer without data from the two countries involved who won't divulge it, so it becomes a matter of subjective opinion.

So how does that make Hamas better (or less bad)? Because they're terrorists we should expect less from them and more from Israel? What is your point?

Please don't look for an argument, I simply answered.

@1dayatatime

You are hilarious. No need to clarify that Hamas break international law as that wasn’t my question.

So you can’t decide yet if Israel are committing any war crimes or international law. Ok.

Do you think it’s possible to vacate 1.1 million (starved of food water and electricity) occupants from north to south in 24 hours under the circumstances and the state Gaza is in, with constant bombs raining down?

@SideBob

Are you actually for real with that question?!

Unequivocally YES you’d hope a ‘democratic’ government would behave in a better way and respond in a better way. Of course.

The UN and other nations are trying to back Israel but at the same time are very uneasy at how they’re purposefully exacting revenge from civilians.

They voted for them knowing, or they should have known, that this is in their founding Charter:

'the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).'

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988 (yale.edu)

In 2013, 40% of Palestinian muslims said attacks against civilians in defence of Islam were sometimes/always justified.

Muslim Views on Religion and Politics | Pew Research Center

Same year, 89% of Palestinian muslims wanted to live under sharia. Of that 89%, 66% supported the death penalty for leaving Islam, over 50% said honour killings for premarital sex were sometimes or often justified.

Muslim Views on Morality | Pew Research Center

This is not like voting for and then going off the Tories.

“In the last 5 days Israel dropped 6000 bombs on GAZA area ( confirmed from israel air force) and killed 2,251 out of which 441 are children and 248 are women.

Who is biggest terrorist , will it stop getting more people turn into hamas”

excellent point from another poster

They voted for them knowing, or they should have known

You could say the same here, but many people look no further than the tabloids.

@Pollyputhekettleon

So basically, for those that voted for them in 2006, they all deserve it now eh? That’s the gist is it not?

@Pollyputhekettleon

How would you feel if people said Israel basically deserved it due to the decisions of Netahanyu to prop up Hamas? It would be disgusting wouldn’t it?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Sorry but what are you on about? Why would you think that?

The other side are worse so let's hold them to a lower standard? Tbh I'm done engaging here, you don't have an answer.

You can criticise Israel and Hamas without saying 'but' after Hamas. There's no but. They have both committed bad things independently.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyVrqg5u1Hp/?igshid=MmU2YjMzNjRlOQ==

Ive condemned Hamas at every chance I get!

The funny thing is, you can’t condemn the Israeli governments actions can you. No.

So please do not try to say I’m supporting Hamas in any way.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation but Israeli government is a democracy.

We’ll say it over and over and over until the message sinks in.

This is true and many many people would agree. I’ve just finished reading Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse 5 about Dresden which I found powerful. My DC have just learned about Hiroshima at school and were horrified that so many Japanese children died.
It’s for these very reasons that many posters are now objecting to the same fate being wrought upon the Gazan people while western governments send weapons and fly Israeli flags because Israel is a “western-friendly” state in the Middle East. They should be trying to de escalate things, not inflaming them.

Well it seems like Mr Netanyahu has read English Anglosaxon history.

Paying Danegeld to your enemies didn't work for Aethelred II of England and it hasn't worked for Netanyahu.

This isn't like voting for the Tories without reading their election manifesto or something. It's not as if attitudes to Israel and the Jews are a little side issue in that part of the world. Look at the opinion polls I posted above from 2013 about beliefs in general among the Palestinian muslim population. Voting for Hamas at about 40% is exactly in line with it.

I truly hope anyone here who is defending these rockets from America to Israel the jets from the UK to Israel and more never have to go through what my brothers and sisters in palestine are going through. God help you all.

@Green777

You are hilarious. No need to clarify that Hamas break international law as that wasn’t my question.

So you can’t decide yet if Israel are committing any war crimes or international law. Ok.

Do you think it’s possible to vacate 1.1 million (starved of food water and electricity) occupants from north to south in 24 hours under the circumstances and the state Gaza is in, with constant bombs raining down?

++++

Well the question you asked was whether I agree with the UN statement or not which referenced both the Israeli government and Hamas which is why I covered both. Or were you referring a different UN statement as you never clarified this.

As for deciding whether the Israeli Army are deliberately targeting civilians how can you definitively know the answer to that. Are you in a position to know that the Israeli commanders say "hey there's a building with lots of civilians in it so let's blow it up" or do they say "hey there's a building with some Hamas terrorists in it but with some civilians in it who will most likely be killed when we blow it up". One example is a war crime and one is not .

This is not difficult to understand but impossible to prove without the decision making evidence which will never be available. But from a military perspective there is no benefit from deliberately killing innocent civilians, it only hardens resolve so it is logical that they would seek to avoid civilian casualties.

On moving 1.1 million civilians from northern Gaza to southern Gaza in 24 hours then no it is no possible. Do you think it is possible to move a smaller number to southern Gaza in 24 hours?

Also I see that you have conveniently omitted again any mention of the Hamas position on this telling civilians to not move south and telling them to stay home. If they cared about their citizens well being then they would be doing everything to facilitate such a move south.

Well they knew what they were voting for because it's in Hamas' Charter. They (Hamas) were, and still are committed to the anihilation of the State of Israel. Did they think that the Israelies would just roll over and play dead?

Or are you like one of those people who says that Brexiteers 'didn't know what they were voting for'?

If I had wanted to say that, I would have said it. You have no answer to living next to a population, 40% of which supports killing civilians in defence of their religion. None. You don't even know how to solve the relatively far smaller problem of Islamic extremism and jihadism in your own country.