To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

People have an obsession with Israel because they get to blame Jews for it. Look at most other issues in the world where there aren’t Jews to blame and see how much people really care about those

It’s not true that wrong doing by other country’s is ignored or that no other nations are viewed in a negative light. Take Russia for example, plenty of people bad mouthing it for what’s is doing to Ukraine.

“bad mouthing it”?

Interesting choice of words.

Anyway, the anti-Israel lobby has been going at this for many, many years. And doing so as a political and social touchstone. Of course other tensions and conflicts in the world attract (some) attention. But nothing like the fixated, relentless, single-issue campaigning against Israel - which is the give-away of these campaigners’ antisemitism.

Anyway, the anti-Israel lobby has been going at this for many, many years. And doing so as a political and social touchstone. Of course other tensions and conflicts in the world attract (some) attention. But nothing like the fixated, relentless, single-issue campaigning against Israel - which is the give-away of these campaigners’ antisemitism

Im talking about the views of the general public rather than lobby’s. Israel and the Palestinians are at the forefront at the moment because they are at war. They are not all everyone thinks about all the time.

There are countries with literal concentration camps, countries conducting genocide, and barely a word from the media or any awareness. Certainly no Chinese person living in the UK is ever held accountable for or interrogated as to their opinion about China's use of death camps.

Let's not pretend every country that commits human rights violations is subject to this, because Israel is unique. Even Russia is a bad example - Russia had been committing atrocities and human rights violations for decades (Belarus, for example) and it took an outright invasion of another country to make the world notice or care.

Certainly no Chinese person living in the UK is ever held accountable for or interrogated as to their opinion about China's use of death camps
How do you know? I mean this is anecdotal evidence isn’t it? I’ve never been subjected to/knowingly witnessed antisemitism but then I’m not Jewish. Would you know if Chinese people are asked about death camps?

Russia had been committing atrocities and human rights violations for decades (Belarus, for example) and it took an outright invasion of another country to make the world notice or care.
You know about it though? But you think no-one else does?

I'm Jewish and have had none of the experiences you've had. Nor has my sister, her husband and two children who practice more than me.

I don't understand why you are always using the word 'us' in your posts.

I have a real issue with people who use ‘we’ to speak for hundreds and thousands of people without their consent.

It’s like when someone with ADHD says, we do this, we can’t do that, as if they represent every person with ADHD.

Some people here speak as if they are the spokesperson for every Jewish person or Israeli. That would really piss me off if I was from those groups.

Whose post(s) are you referring to?

I am a woman too. Women have experienced sexual harassment as a broad generalisation. It would be perfectly normal for me to speak about sexual harassment and say "this is something we have to face".

If you haven't - cool. WE still do. Even if YOU don't.

You're just being goady.

Belarus has very obviously had a tiny, tiny percentage of the media coverage that the invasion of Ukraine has had, ditto all the other Russian human rights violations and atrocities over the years.

Ditto Chinese concentration camps.

Anyone trying to claim these things have had remotely similar levels of attention as Israel is just being goady, because that's so blatantly not true.

And I personally know because I work directly in this area. I have in the past worked with a Belarusian company who are in exile in the UK, and have spent time with the Belarusian woman who runs the company who has been arrested and tortured multiple times. So I know from actually working with and knowing Belarusian "dissidents" personally how little media attention and public attention there is. But clearly I am very unusual in that respect, very very few people in the UK are actually directly and personally working with Belarusian activists.

Right now I have a publishing deal from a small indie press and I am using part of the book to explore the Chinese concentration camps, the systemic oppress and genocide of Uyghur Muslims and Falon Gong members and how this links with the "red market", the state-run illegal human organ trafficking trade in China. Again, this is obviously very very unusual, since there are hardly lots of people in the UK landing publishing deals to write about the Chinese government

It's very obvious that there's a massive difference in cultural issues where Jews are expected to have an opinion on and be held responsible for Israel, and that simply doesn't exist with most similar cases. For example I used to work mostly in theatre, and you cannot put on a play about anything even slightly Jewish without protests and threats and disruption. Plays about China or with Chinese characters (for example the one going on right now at the Young Vic) do not receive any of this at all, ever.

I guess the point is that Isreal is a country that a lot of people don’t agree with. A lot of people don’t like the Iranian government but don’t get called Islamophobic. To dislike the Israeli government makes your antisemetic, in some cases.
The complication comes partly I’m sure with Israel being the only Jewish country.

To say that it is completely disproportionate to be angry and upset at the thought of a genocide playing out before our very eyes is beyond belief. Why wouldnt people be concerned for the millions of civilians being starved, refused water, having all methods of communication taken away? It is disturbing and gross that you would ask the question 'why are people so obsessed with what Israel are doing'.

Israel is not attempting a genocide but it is oppressing the people in the Palestinian territories. In Gaza you are not even allowed to leave without Israel’s permission. The water supply etc can be cut off (as it is now I believe).
I genuinely don’t understand why some people think the only reason Israel is thought of negatively is because of hatred of the Jewish people as a whole.

Antisemitism may increase at times like this but that’s because some people are arseholes who just like to be haters. They were probably throwing rocks at mosques a few months ago.

Criticism of Israeli government policy and action is intrinsically linked to antisemitism.
Since last weekend, reports of antisemitism in the U.K. have increased three fold. Now tell me British Jews are shutting down debate? Are we, or are we being made to feel responsible for the actions of another country’s government.

Minority groups are held to a higher standard. When terrorist attacks occur, people say <insert ethnic minority here> and their leaders should LOUDLY and CLEARLY condemn the actions. I have and I would but I do it because I want to and it is important to me. I am not the Israeli prime minister nor the IDF, so I hold zero responsibility. As a Jewish person, I have no more responsibility to say “I condemn the bombing of Gaza and the military attacks” than the average other person. I have seen on other threads that posters get themselves all worked up if one doesn’t open their post with “of course innocent victims in Gaza is despicable and I abhor their murder and condemn the actions of the Israeli government”.

Criticism of Israeli government policy and action is intrinsically linked to antisemitism

Is it? Should we just not criticise them then?

You’re just being disingenuous now. People throughout this thread have explained multiple times, and in multiple ways, the details and nuances of how it’s linked.

Look, there are antisemitic ways of criticising Israel, and non-antisemitic ways of criticising Israel. There are antisemitic reasons for doing so, and there are non-antisemitic reasons for doing so. The issue is that vast amounts of people are doing it in an antisemitic way, and for antisemitic reasons. That doesn’t mean everyone is, but it does mean a lot of people are doing so but claiming they aren’t. That’s why it’s so heavily linked.

And if you really think it’s not linked, then you’re going to have to come up with an explanation as to why there’s been a huge increase in antisemitic incidents in the UK this week. Not just this week, but every time something happens in Israel there is an extremely strong correlation with antisemitic incidents around the world. If you’d like to come up with a better explanation of this increase in incidents then I’m all ears.

‘Criticism of Israeli government policy and action is intrinsically linked to antisemitism.’

And there we have it. People honestly believe this shit and that we can criticise any government from any country apart from Israel. Because it’s apparently antisemitic.

I have been reading about the recent rise in antisemitic acts in London recently. Eg playing German military music outside synagogues etc. That’s appalling and antisemitic and I condemn it.

Condemning Hamas whilst feeling terrified for the Palestinian kids about to be wiped out by the Israeli army is not an act of antisemitism. However many Jewish/israeli people would like it to be seen thus.

So you don’t think criticism of Israel is linked to antisemitism, yet you also acknowledge the huge increase in antisemitic incidents in the UK this week. What’s your explanation for why these incidents have happened?

After 9/11 and 7/7 there was a huge increase in Islamophobia and attacks on innocent Muslims wearing headscarves etc. People scared to visit mosques. What is your explanation of that?

People are utter dicks everywhere and attack the wrong target and innocent people get caught up in the backlash. Surely you can see this is not exclusively a Jewish issue?

If you’d like to come up with a better explanation of this increase in incidents then I’m all ears.

Ive already given my explanation - it may be complete tosh but it’s there.

Perhaps* *media is to blame? It’s quite good a whipping the average sun reader into a frenzy

See my reply above.

Do you think feeling fear and compassion for innocent Palestinian children is antisemitic? I would be interested in your response.

Yeah cos that would never happen in the Guardian, would it 🧐

Whats your point? Are you saying the Guardian has been stirring? Cos that wouldn’t invalidate my argument. It would back it up actually.

The explanation to that is Islamophobia. Because there are millions of idiots out there who think all Muslims support terrorists. Every time something like that happens, there’s an associated increase in Islamophobic attacks in Western countries. And yet people will still insist there’s no link.

It’s not an exclusively Jewish issue. Lots of people will tell you that criticism of Isis isn’t Islamophobic and has no connection etc, even we all know that really, Islamophobic people will join any movement that allows them to say things about people and attack them.

@Defiantjazz I won’t be replying to you any more as you’re being deliberately antagonistic and playing dumb.