To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

Straw man

Where I have accused people of being antisemitic, I have quoted what they have said, along with the definition of antisemitism to show where they have breached it.

Disliking a country or political group or actions or attitudes is not racism. Thus, despite you very clearly disliking Israel and having admitted you're biased, I have told you that you have not said anything antisemitic.

Because you have not.

Racism isn't an abstract concept.

Anyone can criticise Israel without being antisemitic, provided they are not antisemitists, are well educated about the history of the Jewish people, the history of the middle east, the foundation of Israel and what happened since then; and provided they are completely aware of the inherent antisemitism in Europe and the collective blind spot to our antisemitic heritage.

I find it bizarre that you think to criticise Isreal without being antisemitic you need to be an historian. Surely you just need eyes and a heart to see that the collective punishment of Palestinians by the Israeli government is abhorrent? There are no excuses for that, not hidden in history, not hidden in religion, it is inexcusable end of.

Well, if you want to criticise Israel without being antisemtic, you want to know as much as possible about the context and history otherwise you will just sound ignorant, antisemitic, or even fanatic. Over and above the history, you should really look at the anti-Semitism that has been happening in whatever culture or community you are from. Passionate yet ignorant soundbites are cheap and unhelpful.

Anyway, who talked about excusing the current Israeli government? That's you. I don't support the current right wing government at all and neither do I support many things that are happening but I don't comment on them in an antisemitic way, which is what this thread is all about.

Feel free to comment without due introspection but the likelihood is that whatever community or culture you are from, your ancestors will have been part of a society where Jews were persecuted. This sort of anti-Semitism unfortunately remains a collective oversight.

You can criticise Israel all day long without being antisemitic as long as you don't:

Require or pressure Jewish people to condemn Israel in public

Blame Jewish people collectively

Apply antisemitic tropes to Israel or zionism

Hold Israel up to a different standard to Palestine or other countries

Deny Israel's right to exist

Other than that, you can criticise as much as you like, as angrily as you like, as robustly as you like.

@LemonyTicket sadly, some want to be able to say antisemitic things without the burden of being labelled antisemites. They just want to say what they think and if what they think happens to also be antisemitic, they don't want anyone to point that out. They also want to educate Jewish people on what antisemitism actually is and expect that Jews do not feel offended by any perceived antisemitism. This probably sums it up.

Well exactly. Not just some, but millions of people. The entire Freedom for Palestine and BDS movement is very, very attractive for antisemites as it somehow gives them a licence to say these things.

@Gravityisreal Your insinuation and accusation is disgusting. You don’t speak for me. Please show me where I said anything like that in my response to your your post. You said it would never be acceptable in any other part of the world, I pointed out that it was, and it did happen- over and over again. Honestly, the prejudice and supposition backed up by sheer ignorance on most of these threads is appalling and depressing.

They are wind up merchants @25milesfromhome, using exaggerated and emotive language attacking individual posters and generally not coming across as smart or eloquent. Report all personal attacks and any posts that spread harmful misinformation.

The conflict has now spilled into many countries where Free Palestine supporters act in hostile and intimidating ways. It is understandable that there is a lot of emotion but much of it is unhelpful, propaganda or sheer encouragement of hostility towards Jewish people. These people really do not help deescalate things.

That principle is far more important that "this is my land and you took it" - particularly as a Jew….To us the concept of arguing about it for 100 years is so alien. It is not important to fight over where your grandparents lived 75 years ago. This is not an important moral principle

That seems to fall right under 'Applying double standards by requiring of Muslims behaviours that are not expected or demanded of any other groups in society'.

Disliking a country or political group or actions or attitudes is not racism. Thus, despite you very clearly disliking Israel and having admitted you're biased, I have told you that you have not said anything antisemitic.

True, but you seemed keen to have a pop at me anyway. Telling me I’m giving off weird vibes and I’m trolling. What that all about?
I’m sorry to keep banging on about it but I do feel you were just trying to push me off balance. Like that other poster who tried to tell me my posts were difficult to follow and “strange”. Pull the other one.

Spot. Fucking. On.

It’s the fixation with Israel, the only Jewish state, that reveals the antisemitism of so many, in my view.

Also the lack of any willingness to recognise - in fact consciously closing minds to - the facts of persecution and genocide of Jews, including in living memory, that makes Israel and Jews so rightly fierce about their homeland’s protection and survival.

That sums it up!

How so?

My grandparents home and land was taken in 1941 (Iraq) and 1956 (Egypt). I do not hold claim to it or go to those places with weapons to fight for it back. How is it a double standards?

It's the same standard

Sorry if you've felt like that. For me, it feels like this is a thread about understanding antisemitism and some people have been drawn to it, not to understand antisemitism, but to sort of sit in the background with an anti Israel agenda and just keep quoting posts to needle them in order to take out a sense of hostility they have.

You have probably no idea what it's like to deal with this for years on end online. Completely exhausting.

Thanks for saying this. There isn't an outright defined classification of "obsession with Israel" as antisemitism - but it certainly feels like a weird fixation on the only Jewish state as the sole bad guy on the face of earth.

It's made "online space" very hostile for Jews.

This is bizarre to me? Israel are breaching international humanitarian laws, they are enforcing collective punishments right now. They have given people 24hrs to do something impossible, real peoples lives hang in the balance and you are pretty much saying 'Ew, why are they so obsessed with us'.

I am not "pretty much" saying it. I am outright saying it.

Why are you so obsessed with us?!

There's a widely publicised conflict today, right now, but this obsession has gone on for years. It's completely disproportionate, it's directed entirely in one direction, and it seems to be to be an almost fixation for many people.

Genuine question.....why?

This isn’t just about what’s been happening this week. This is about the long term issue that a lot of people out there only care about Palestine and nothing else. There are lots of hideous things going on in the world, including the treatment of Uighur Muslims in China but also countless other hideous things, and there is nowhere near the level of outrage going on. Yes, they’ll all claim they care about other stuff too but they really don’t. Israel and Palestine is the pet issue of millions of antisemites because it reinforces their world view that Jews are bad people. People have an obsession with Israel because they get to blame Jews for it. Look at most other issues in the world where there aren’t Jews to blame and see how much people really care about those.

You have probably no idea what it's like to deal with this for years on end online. Completely exhausting

Maybe just step away from it then. Few people are genuine online and most are somewhat badly behaved on sites where this is allowed to extent (such as this one) because you don’t have to deal with the reality of who you’re speaking to.

Because Israel are committing mass punishments against civilians. Right now. Right now they have given people the impossible of evacuating. Right now people are suffering horrifically at the hands of the Israeli government. To say that it is completely disproportionate to be angry and upset at the thought of a genocide playing out before our very eyes is beyond belief. Why wouldnt people be concerned for the millions of civilians being starved, refused water, having all methods of communication taken away? It is disturbing and gross that you would ask the question 'why are people so obsessed with what Israel are doing'.

You want the world to turn its back on Palestianians and thank fuck they are refusing to.

Yes, because antisemitism only started a few days ago and had never existed before this week 🧐

Yes. So far, due to antisemitism

I have left the Labour Party
My kids have left the Labour party
I have left Twitter and Facebook
My kids have had to step back from social media and unfollowed many accounts they were interested in
My son had to leave his university socialist society
I don't feel able to join a political party for fear I'd face the same (for example the local council)
My kids have had to stop contact with some of their friends

And now, you're suggesting I don't use Mumsnet to discuss antisemitism either.

Or, alternatively, people could stop being antisemitic so Jews could participate in life like everyone else without feeling uncomfortable?

Or, is letting y'all take out your fixation on the only Jewish state a larger priority?

I think you're being spectacularly gaslit right now!

And now, you're suggesting I don't use Mumsnet to discuss antisemitism either.

Or, alternatively, people could stop being antisemitic so Jews could participate in life like everyone else without feeling uncomfortable

There doesn’t seem much point in discussing it with people you don’t feel are being genuine and are just trolling /venting ill feeling. If it were me I wouldn’t bother.