To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

"Death has come to our kitchens "

Are you speaking as an Israeli or Palestinian ?

This particular partition, like many, was done by outsiders but at the request of some of the insiders. Insiders who had been persecuted by the majority population for religious reasons for centuries.

Have you studied every instance of partition in history and were the outcomes all worse than the alternatives? I doubt it. Apart from which, you'd need a crystal ball to know how the alternatives would have turned out. The separation of Burma from India - by those evil outsider Brits at the request of many Burmese - apparently was peaceful and successful in the end. Actually the Peel Commission Report refers to it as an example of partitions.

Death with a capital D. The twisted faces of pure Evil. The delight in savage butchery. Death came alive, riding around on motorbikes and livestreaming on Telegram.

If they were animals it would be easier. We cannot expect humanity from animals. But they were humans with dark blasted hearts filled with hate.

We have no words and no negotiations with such evil. We understand innocent people die (lower case d) as we fight for our existence, but we are not targeting innocent people, and that is why we are who we are. Even when we die, we live. But these terrorists were dead before they even died.

'Have you studied every instance of partition in history?' No, of course not. Have you ? (But I respectfully disagree that anything the British Empire did in India or Burma or Pakistan helped those regions in the long term)
'You'd need a crystal ball to know how the alternatives would have turned out'. Indeed! Okay, I'll rephrase: ' Partition (by outsiders, even if some insiders wanted to gain advantages from it) is almost ALWAYS a mistake'. Better ?

I do agree with posters who have commented that ethnic groups who have access to the same advantages as other local ethnic groups rarely make war. They just get on with life.

@AUserNameIsNot

Palestinian or Israeli or both ?

There is a lot of surreptitious manipulation of low information observers in any discussion on Israel or in a wider sense, Jews.

A good example of that is the number of people willing to call themselves anti Zionist without giving much consideration to what it actually means.

The same thing can be seen through conspiracy theories and the infiltration of right wing conspiracies in that. There's loads of people that are so stupid they probably couldn't find their own arses repeating anti Jewish conspiracies without even realising that's what they're doing. They don't hate "Jews" they just hate a load of people that happen to be Jewish or represent something that is seen as being inherently Jewish.

Not a single thing the British did helped those regions in the long term? Didn't they ban widow burning? Built some railway lines?

Your characterization of the motives of minorities in seeking partition as 'wanting to gain advantages from it' is interesting. I mean, sure, wanting to not be persecuted by the majority ever again is an advantage. But that's not usually how you'd describe such a motivation.

If you study anthropology, you'll find that groups made war on each other constantly, usually about access to women. It had nothing to do with 'advantages'. They were literally just having beefs about who raped whose property last. Another common motive was when one group showed disrespect to the other's sacred places. People get genuinely furious about that kind of thing, something atheist/materialist modern westerners seem to find almost impossible to accept. These are not groups where one was richer than another, those concepts weren't even applicable.

Israeli Jew, dual citizen, long term resident in London.

Pro Palestinian state and pro Palestinian rights, against the occupation, but being woke wouldn't have saved me if I fell into their hands.

They tortured and violated a peace loving conscientious objector to Israeli military service, paraded her unconscious on Al Jazeera, and now she's allegedly in intensive care in captivity, possibly still alive.

At times like this you realise however hard you try, to anti Semites a Jew is always a Jew.

All the killing is bad. One lot of killing does not justify more murder .

No.

We bomb the rockets they fire at us from their homes, and the people who fire them because we refuse on moral grounds to give up and die. That is lawful under the rules of law provided it is proportionate.

Sadly that leads to tragic consequences for their families.

We do not act out of hate or anger or revenge.

That is not the same thing as intentionally dismembering children in front of their parents. The full horror of what happened is unspeakable.

It is hate anger and revenge

That's normal reaction but it's still wrong and short sighted

@Pollyputhekettleon 'banning widow burning & building some railway lines' hardly balances the scales of what the British did in India, in my opinion, No. Inevitability any minority will seek to improve its lot if it is not being treated equitably. Of course access to women is a massive historical advantage - it's how any particular population increases. I may be 'a modern Westerner' (we're all viewing via a modern prism) but don't assume I'm insensible re Religion (or indeed what my ethnic background may be).

@Defiantjazz As I get older I find it very hard to reconcile how I feel to be British, when I am so acutely aware of how much of the issues in the world have been caused and created by the empire and colonialism. I once went to a museum in Cambridge and there they had a huge totem pole in the middle of the room and from what I could see, someone decided it would be great for everyone else to see in the U.K. so took down a huge religious artefact and popped it onto a boat and sailed away with it. Everyone was in awe of this totem pole, it’s beautiful but it made me feel very sad. I feel sad now, even though I know these things took place a long time ago, and I can’t change them I just feel sorry. Perhaps thing were done with the best of intentions at the time although I often doubt that

Yes, and you have things like the Benin Bronzes, which 100% belong to a culture that still exists, but the various museums won’t give them back because that would set and precedent. Maybe they’d have to start giving everything back. We can’t have that can we?

I promise you it's not. It's love. For our children and their future. We refuse to bequeath this evil to our children.

They may not teach you this in your woke studies class, but the history of mankind is full of decisive battles which changed the course of history. Sometimes, war is the answer.

Daesh was dragged down and is no more.

Hamas will fall.

Not when a lot of artifacts would be returning to cultures that actively destroy art and UNESCO world heritage sites.

Not when a lot of artifacts would be returning to cultures that actively destroy art and UNESCO world heritage sites

I don’t think Nigeria is planning to get the bronzes back to trash them

Hamas will fall.

And something will replace them. The combative mentality (from both sides) will just perpetuate the conflict endlessly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-65531736

This is the plan for the bronzes. However I was talking about the wider discussion around cultural artifacts

Yes, like the German Federal government replaced the anti Semitic government of Adolf Hitler. Or the government of Iraq replaced Isis in Mosul.

Maybe the Palestinian Authority will reassert control over Gaza. Who knows? All I know is this: we will not tolerate the continued existence of a state of pure evil on our Southern border.

It's not love - and it helps to keep the hatred and fear going for generations- is that the future you want for your children?

Was it love that motivated the Germans during the nazi years ? No it was fear and self preservation and it led to great evil

Fortunately, I’ve seen mostly healthy debate on this thread.

That said, people have a right to report racist or sexist or ableist or otherwise offensive posts. MN has a right to protect itself. Freedom of speech does not mean there are not consequences.

Personally, I prefer posts are not deleted as it gives racists an excuse to carry on because their opinions have been wiped.

You keep assuming there is a logical motivation for Hamas' atrocities and if we're nice enough to the Gentiles they will stop killing us.

We've been there, in Auschwitz. We've done that already. We're not sheep to be slaughtered all over again.

You probably didn't mean to imply that the ovens of Auschwitz were just the Germans self preservation.