To be sickened by Hamas

[MindfullyAmazedHorse]

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

nope. It’s not that simple. Palestinians don’t even access to their own services because of checkpoints, road blocks and other things used by Israeli government. The argument is security which I get, but it’s making people more angry and desperate. There needs to be another way.

https://www.map.org.uk/downloads/map-ch1--access-to-healthcare.pdf
https://www.msf.org/west-bank-palestine-communities-face-healthcare-access-challenges
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/right-to-health-barriers-to-health-and-attacks-on-health-care-in-the-opt-2019-to-2021-who-report/

I read a very interesting book about the northern Ireland conflict. It was written by a man who had been a paramilitary in the UVF.

He was old and retired when he wrote the book. And he said at an older age that he saw the conflict as pontless. But that when he was younger, he had been very involved.

He wrote some very interesting things.

He said that a huge part of their campaign was to make the IRA look bad.

He said thay the UVF would plant bombs and then ring in and pretend to be the IRA and claim responsibility.

I'm sure the IRA told lies about the UVF too. It is all smokes and mirrors.

Each side wants to make the other side look bad.

That is why I don't believe everything I see that is reported about the Israel/ Palestine conflict.

If someone neutral is actually there seeing what is happening, I would trust that more.

@UhohFibonacci

You finding a video of a random an anti-Zionist from an ultra-Orthodox group like Neturei Karta and Satmar Hasidismdoesn't prove what "Jews" think, any more than me pulling out a Mormon proves what white American thinks. Their views are not born of logic or compassion, they are ultra-religious extremists who believe Jews have taken a vow to not be political (even if it means being murdered) and then consider us wanting a safe homeland anti messianic.

They believe we are put on earth and should suffer millenia of torture in silence because we are required to wait for the heavenly, complete, miraculous, supernatural, and meta-historical redemption that is totally distinct from the realm of human endeavor. They believe the prophets on messianic destiny. In short - they are fucking nuts.

Every poll in existence says most Jews are zionists by an overwhelming majority, and I have never met one who wasn't outside of a few very hard left groups where I think they have been radicalised. Certainly the ones who are not very fussed certainly defend the rights of other Jews to flourish as they choose. It's preposterous to even suggest Jews would or should deny their own right of sovereign state while championing someone else's.

It seems an almost deranged positions really. Denounce your OWN nationalism entirely, whilst campaigning for the nationalism of someone ELSE. So much so that you are willing to share, they are not, and you commit suicide to give them what they want? Are we lost forever in dhimmitude, is that it? We can live, but only if subservient, only if willing to tolerate not deserving the basic rights all other people's have?

Are they still allowing flights into Israel? My friend was meant to go next month with a group, to do a history tour. I presume many flights are cancelled now.

Theres zero point condemning either side. This just drags a messy protracted (century long) conflict further down.
There’s no rights and plenty of wrongs on both sides.

It needs a solution and quick. Who wants another 100 years of this?

When have you seen Israel kidnap women and children?

They prosecute palestian children in military court though right?. According to Save the Children they beat and strip search these children, they are interrogated without a guardian, they are deprived of sleep, food and water. They are often refused legal councel. The most common 'crime' is throwing stones.

Save the Children's report said some of the former child detainees it spoke to reported violence of a sexual nature, while many others were beaten, handcuffed and blindfolded in small cages in detention centres and upon being moved between centres.

This happens to between 500 and 1000 children every single year.

Sounds a lot like state sanctioned kidnap and torture of children to me.

@Coffeerum

No I don't think the method of killing a child or a baby is massively different. If you can bomb a hospital or school and disassociate yourself from the deaths caused you are no less of a sociopath than someone who can slit a throat

What nonsense.

If this were true then every person who's ever fought in a war is the equivalent of an ISIS terrorist.

I wonder will they ever start peace talks.

It is immature, it always seems to be boys with guns constantly shooting and bombing watch other and wanting power. They need to mature and start peace talks.

But Israel won't give any rights or power to Gaza. They need to change

The Pain and suffering caused by Hamas & Israeli government is unforgivable.

This unfortunately dates back to nearly 100 years ago. Israel wanted to take land back that they believed was there’s, the people living on that land felt they had a right to live there in peace. Which caused wars lasting a century.
Israels government chose to oppress the Palestinians, they have been condemned as breaking human rights laws against Palestinian people.
Hamas was formed out of the ongoing issues, now even more people will die and suffer.

Nothing here is black and white. Innocent lives have been lost for years over this.

@LemonyTicket When have you seen Israel kidnap women and children?
When have you seen them murder young women and parade their corpse through the street spitting on it?
When have you seen them behead a civilian?
When have they videos themselves killing a civilian Grandma and uploading it to her facebook for her family to watch the murder?

I'm really not going to benchmark killings and atrocities like the above and the bombings of schools, hospitals etc and try to claim some sort of moral high ground like you're obsessed with doing.

It's fucking brutal day when someone is trying to argue that death by bombing and death by beheading is somehow vastly different. It's not.

It's quite telling that you cropped out the rest of my comment in an attempt to twist my post.
For you, and anyone else reading who might be confused from your edited version here is the rest of my post.

"I have nothing but condemnation for the acts from Hamas but lets not pretend it is only Hamas who attack civilians, deliberately target non combatants, kill the elderly and children deliberately. It is not a one sided conflict.
The actions of both sides are not human.

And no, that isn't antisemitic. I'm not making any sort of generalisation on all Jewish people by commenting on the actions of the state of Israel and it's supporters"

Agreed. In the end, money sorted it.
Wealth is the start and end point for global conflict.

Some people are so desperate to see Palestinian blood they can't even accept a logical discussion.

Some people are so excited they finally are going to get rid of Palestinians while Israel finally gets all the land it was trying to steal for years, they will fight tooth and nails to spread lies.

It is making me sick, I feel like there is nothing I can do but watch the atrocities unfold and hope that after, people realised it was wrong.

Poor Israeli victims, poor Palestinians victims.

With every Intifada a new generation of terrorists is being created. With every death, Palestinian or Israeli, a clusterfuck of psychologically damaged kids ready to die for their country emerges.

So think about that before you start talking about how glad you are about the retaliation. That it's a good thing over 1000 Palestinians have been killed in the last two days.

No one is talking about the wonderful British empire that started this whole shit show in the first place.

Or the proxy wars, international politics or anything to do with the reason we are here in the first place.

Or any commentary on diplomatic solutions.

No. As usual, no nuance and no critical thinking. It's chicken and egg. And has been since 1947.

I don't exactly support Israel (there's some religious extremists there too - but that's another story), but I keep hearing this argument and I'm just not convinced. because
a) many post-colonial settlements attempted to resolve religious disagreements by creating separate states, why is only this one "the Jews stole our land"?
b) Israel didn't just walk in and take extra land. There was a war to wipe out the very young state, which it won and ended up with more land instead of less.

Another one ignorant of the fact there were also Jews living there all along. As second class citizens for centuries under Islamic rule.

I was just thinking today thank god I don't live in Israel.

But then I lived in northern Ireland during the troubles. I saw a lot of the same shit going on there.

I really understand how these conflicts keep going and going.

People say you did this to me, so I'm going to do this to you. And it escalates and escalates. Cruelty matches cruelty.

You shot my grandfather so I'm going to shoot yours. You bombed my restaurant so I'm going to bomb yours.

It goes on and on and on and on, until eventually eventually people start to want better

FFS Palestinians can't have free movement across Israel because a) a good portion of them want to kill Israels and have the resources to do so and b) they're not Israeli citizens!

Iraqis, Afgans, Canadians, British, Brazilians, Koreans etc, etc, don't have free movement across international borders either. Often they will not have exactly the same rights as the native population either (non-uk citizens can't vote in a GE for example) and in general you can't just jump across to the next country to recieve medical care whenever you want. That doesn't make them unequal or oppressed.

Palestinians who recieve permission to live in Israel recieve the same rights as any other Israeli with regards to things like medical treatment, being able to work, etc.

Palestinians who don't have permission to live in Israel don't get the same rights and I don't understand why you'd expect them to?

In fact the only way your viewpoint makes any sense is if you believe that Gaza & the West Bank are actually Israeli land. In which case you might want to tell the Palestinians that.

This goes back long before 1947. And the British proposed a very sensible two-state solution in the 1930s. The Jews accepted that offer, the Arabs refused. The muslims were offered 80% of the Mandate territory. They refused to let their former Jewish dhimmis have a sovereign state on land conquered by Islam.

@Denis44

I am sorry it hasn't added anything to "your understanding", because it is hugely lacking! If you want to discuss such an important issue then you should be also willing to learn.

You keep trying to twist things back to "agendas" but the reality is that it doesn't matter what my agenda is. Even if I had one.

You seem to be under the impression that citizens of countries which are not Israel should be entitled to all the same rights as Israel citizens.

There is no country on the planet where non citizens get citizens rights. You surely know this?

Moreover, you seem to not only should Israel give citizens rights to other countries citizens, but that it should do it for countries actively engaging in war with them.

Which takes your argument over into me needing to go and get a rum before lunch. How can you possible draw these conclusions?

This would be the equivalent to the Luftwaffe turning up here in 1944 asking for a council house and you telling Winston Churchill that he was abusing human rights if he didn't provide them.

It's batshit!

@Pollyputhekettleon cool so ignore everything else that I said - It's all the Muslims fault, got it 👍🏽

https://twitter.com/OrenZiv/status/1712038436910055925

For anyone interested in reading with their own eyes rather than listening to the hate speech crew on here. Oren Ziv, an ISRAELI journalist, saying that no one mentioned beheading of babies. He also states that Israel will now use the lies to Bomb Gaza.

I have tears in my eyes that Israelis are starting to speak up against what their government is doing. Pure strength and honesty. We need to spread their message and help stop the horror we are walking towards.

It's interesting to see some of the pro Palestinian responses to this topic on other threads which seem to follow the Chinese Communist Party / Russian playbook of:

Step 1 - deny it for example the Hamas spokesman yesterday denying any civilian casualties
Step 2 - whataboutery - ahh but what about all those civilians killed by Israel over the years
Step 3 - conspiracy theories. The Israeli government knew about it and deliberately did nothing. It's all a ploy by the US Government to get their hands on somebody's oil etc etc
Step 4 - once the conspiracy theories take hold go back to denial.

@Daftasabroom

Arguably it is the Imperial British "siding" with the Zionists that bears a heavy responsibility for this whole situation

Oh for goodness sake!

Both Jews and Arabs had claim to the land. Both lived here. The Arabs in greater numbers, but the Jews with a greater claim to being indigenous.

Both groups wanted power over the area when the British left.

The British did an investigation (Peel Commission) and decided both had a claim and therefore a two state solution should be given.

Arabs were offered 80% of the land in 1936 and Jews were offered 20%. JEws had 28% of the population at that time so this was a VERY fair offer.

The Arabs told them to fuck off because they refused to accept their dhimmi having their own state.

Stop this imperial zionist nonsense!

If anyone is imperial it is the Arabs who could not accept not having complete dominance over a region which was not indigenously theirs!

Yes but you were welcomed into a land which you had left. Then you settled and kicked the people there out of their beds. Over 70 years they tolerated this. No one is agreeing with Hamas- they are barbaric.

Israel never tried to live alongside the Palestinians are you joking? They tried to suffocate them and make them leave and live as refugees.

It is also horrific that me even saying this can backfire on my professional and personal life.

I read somewhere that this is holocaust guilt manifesting. But the Palestinians had nothing to do with the holocaust, why are they not allowed to speak out and up?

Can you honestly say that life is fine for Palestinians in Palestine and elsewhere? They live a living hell that has come at the hands of Israel and the governments that support it. Its disgusting that people ignore this.

Yes it is disgusting that Hamas is doing, horrific. What Israel does and continues to do is just as disgusting.

Yes and you are forgetting a vital part to your story.

What did Israel do after it was formed? What atrocities did they inflict on the Palestinians? Did they stand by the land agreement?