To be sickened by Hamas

[MindfullyAmazedHorse]

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

On the contrary, I think that the Israeli government's illegal actions in Gaza have for a long time distracted us from seeing Hamas as they really are - an extreme terrorist group who see Jews as subhuman with no right to exist at all, let alone live on "their" territory. If Hamas were simply reacting to Israeli violence the situation would be much easier to resolve.

Arguably it is the Imperial British "siding" with the Zionists that bears a heavy responsibility for this whole situation.

@Denis44

That’s also not true though

Yes it is, Arabs who are Israeli citizens have the same legal rights as Jews. They are governed by the same laws, they have the same protections under law - which is why they love living there. There is racial discrimination, of course, unsurprisingly, but the legal system in Israel does not discriminate based on religion, race or gender. As much is enshrined in the declaration of independence, which states: "[Israel] will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex".

There only notable caveat to that, is that those of Arab heritage do not have a right of return to Israel. The reasoning for that is twofold:

1. Historic; Israel was founded in the years following the Holocaust to (among other reasons) provide a home for Jews wherever they may be. The nascent State of Israel sought to be a beacon of immigration for Jews in the post-WWII years and remains that in principle - it is a safe haven to all Jews who wish to come.

2. Inherent in the aim of preservation of it's liberal, democratic foundations it obviously can't just let in 7 million Arabs who would then highly possible vote in another Hamas and Israel would be gone.

But that's it. Otherwise, they have the same rights.

Palestinians don’t have the same rights, are not allowed free movement for instance. Need special permissions to get to hospital. There are women dying in labour in checkpoints because of this. I could go on…

I am talking about Arab / Muslims / Palestinians who are citizens of Israel. There are 2 million of them who live in Israel and enjoy equal rights to Jewish Israelis.

You are talking about Palestinians citizens of a Palestinian Country. They are not Israeli citizens. Why on earth would you think they would have the same rights as citizens? Do you have equal rights in France to a French citizen? Can you go to America and claim Medicare? Of course not! No country on earth offers citizens rights to anyone who is not it's citizens.

The people you are talking about are Gazan citizens. Their government is Hamas. Hamas decide what rights they get. Hamas are also responsible for their medical needs, but they smashed up all the hospitals. Israel helps, but it is very careful who it lets in as this week's events shows is completely necessary.

You tell us what Jewish people are thinking, and then tell us they don't all feel the same about things. Yes, we know that - which is why you need to shut up and let them speak, especially since the Jewish posters on here are clearly better informed than you are.

I'm sickened by the loss of life and terrible injuries on both sides and what the Palestinians have had to put up with generally from Israeli govt policy. And by the anti-Semitism and racism that I'm sure people will suffer as a result.

I couldn’t agree more. I imagine that’s one ‘context’ that many on this thread will not be so keen to look at.

@Itllbefine6 that is really insightful, I agree with you.

This one is genuinely hilarious. They might stop cluttering up the thread if people stop responding though.

Thanks for another long and patronising explanation and opinions, it really doesn’t add anything to my understanding so I’m just going to leave it there.
i don’t think it’s fair to say that Gaza people can just get on with it and that they are their own country, when the borders are controlled by Israel and they can’t even import or export or fish in their own waters. Also tight the space is. I was referring also to people from West Bank. I think your posts have a certain agenda. I wish you all the best, it’s not easy living with intergenerational trauma and I think that’s one of the reasons why there can’t be a progress in this conflict, people on both sides are brought up to dehumanise each other and see things from only their point of view.

YANBU to be sickened by the killing and rape of innocent civilians and children.

However, and this is in by no means a justification for war crimes, doesn’t that happen in every conflict and war to some degree. Has there ever been a conflict where women haven’t been raped and children haven’t been killed.

War crimes are obviously abhorrent, but don’t they happened repeatedly throughout conflicts across history?

Why is that a ridiculous comment? I'm still curious to see any actual answers, in particular to why

I don’t have to tell you what they think, they are telling us what they think ! @UhohFibonacci

I'm willing to bet you have a single Jewish neighbour/coworker who said "I sympathise with Palestinians etc" and you've now construed that as all Jews being anti-government and changing free Palestine...

Not buying it. It's normal to have sympathy for innocent children caught up in this, doesn't mean they're siding with Hamas

That's IF you even k or any Jewish people and have just pulled this out your arse altogether

On the contrary, I think that the Israeli government's illegal actions in Gaza have for a long time distracted us from seeing Hamas as they really are - an extreme terrorist group who see Jews as subhuman with no right to exist at all, let alone live on "their" territory. If Hamas were simply reacting to Israeli violence the situation would be much easier to resolve.

I agree but the main issue being that it is actually their land. But people need to learn to live side by side. As many people were actually doing. As usual it's the government and leaders of terrorist and political organisations causing the shit and not people trying to go about their lives.

The issues are really longstanding and go back more than 80 years- you could find roots of it in the Crusades and also British govt interference in the middle east before WW2.

First thing we studied in GCSE history in 1990 was the roots of modern conflict - so at the time that was Israel v Palestine (oh and a certain Gulf War breaking out) and the Northern Ireland conflict.

I really hope none of these posters who were unaware of these issues previously are my age (late 40s).

Thank you OP for condemning the violent atrocities. Unfortunately this has not been universal.

I stand by Israel. Murdering civilians, including babies in their cribs and beheading them, and systematically raping women as a weapon of war, can never be justified.

This is the equivalent of 9/11 for Israel. A greater proportion of civilians have died in Israel, than did in the US 9/11 attacks.

This will also stop any possibility of peace talks. Many Israelis have not supported the current government. There have been protests. Now all are united in wanting to destroy Hamas.

Don't you think the native Jews of the area deserved a state just as the Muslims did? More so actually after living as dhimmis on that land under Islamic rule for centuries. Were the Brits siding with Zionists when they offered the Arabs a state on 80% of the territory in the 1930s? Funny way to favour the Jews!

This atrocity was not a war crime. It is wrong to try to give some sort of legitimacy to it by pretending it was. This was an act of terrorism specifically targeted at civilians.

I thought the patents of shani louk confirmed she was alive and in a gaza hospital??! There is so much misinformation out there and on mn.

That is actually a very beautiful example.

Turns out, she wasn't dead. And she is receiving treatment in a hospital in Gaza at the moment (according to her mother, good source, I'd say).

So did we see her being taken hostage? Yes. Was she unconscious and in a bad state? Did we see A Palestinian disrespecting her. Yes we did. Is it horrible? Yes it is.

Did we see a woman who has been raped and who's dead body is being paraded around. No we didn't.

Now regarding the 40 decapitated babies. Did you see a hostage with their hand attached behind their back killed. Yes you did. Could Hamas have killed them? Yes, they could. Could they have died in a cross fire? Yes, they could. Would it be horrible and Hamas fault just the same. Yes it would. Did we see decapitated dead babies? No we didn't . Did an official Israeli confirm that babies had been decapitated? No (well not as far as I have seen, can someone show me a link?)

Now, you say "but the journalists said so and a few soldiers said so. It can't be a lie".

Well, I got you sis. Meet Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ who gave a testimony in front of the US congress. Her story was sad. She had seen Iraqi soldiers enter a hospital and taken the babies out of the incubator (animals). Amnesty International corroborated. Bush used it to justify supporting Kuwait in the Golf War.

Now, the problem is... Nayirah, our little angel, was lying. Ouch. I recommend everyone to read about Atrocities propaganda

Now, I ask again. Can someone link me to an official from the Israeli government or Army making an official statement about the beheaded babies The only message from Israeli authorities (the army) is that they had no information about it happening.

Now, I would not say that this is atrocities propaganda, the day the U.N chief condemned Israel's action in Palestine and voices started to raise, obviously, that would be crazy. It's not like I have read 600 times "Wow, that totally changed my mind, they can bomb the whole of Gaza to the ground , I don't care anymore" today.

I don't think you understand. Hamas, and not only Hamas, view the entire Middle East as Islamic territory, on which non muslims can never have a state. Regardless of the fact there were Jews living there the entire time.

Well known tactic of terrorist groups. Put out a bit of propaganda that claims to show them protecting a person.

But their other actions show they do the exact opposite.

PIRA & UVF did the same thing. But they weren't even defenders either.

NATO StratCom COE, UN and various governments have noted Hamas' disregard for civilians and their tactic of using civilians as human shields too.

Your video is NOT of Palestinian civilians protecting this woman and her child. It's a video of what the title says is Palestinian fighters.

Any reason why you failed to include the actual title in your post? 🤔

@Itllbefine6

He/she is only picking out bits of history to challenge the current rather rosy picture of "Jews and Muslims living in harmony until white people interfered" that is actually quite widely taught, and which you repeated in your post

Thank you.

Exactly this.
The narrative that we were in harmony is based on the fact that when we were in servitude we were not violent and just got on with it. The facts are that we paid extra taxes, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Quran, Islam or Muhammad, to socialise with Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a non ­Muslim as a wife). We were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. We were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. We were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. We had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. We were not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, so in a court case we would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense which basically meant we had no legal recourse if harmed by a Muslim. We were forced to wear distinctive clothing. In the ninth century, for example, Baghdad’s Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews which is what gave the Nazis the idea in the first place.Our position was never secure, even if we kept our heads down. Any political or social issues often lead to persecution, violence and death. have a Google. There were endless massacres. Endless. And we were a small population and had no weapons or legal recourse. They could do as they wished. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews were entirely regular under Ottoman rule.I can't even type out the huge list of massacres, but people should look on Wikipedia. Over and over again there were decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues. In Yemen, Morocco, Iraq we were forced to convert to Islam on pain of death and anything we owned was routinely confiscated.So this is important to both understand that the Arab animosity and feeling of disgust towards Jews far pre-dated Israel, and it should also put in context how very much Jews needed their own state and how this being enacted was the entirely just and correct choice. With all the above I honestly do just get very cross when people try and portray it as harmonious. I doubt anyone here would live that way or even imagine what it must have been like.

And that would be because they take a literal interpretation of the Bible in which Jews don't return to Israel until the Messiah carries them there on winged chariots.

They're entitled to believe this, but they're a minority within a minority and their reasoning isn't what you think it is...even if they do look 'more Jewish' than the Jews you're trying to speak for and talk over.