To be sickened by Hamas

[MindfullyAmazedHorse]

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

Just a quick question for anyone defending Hamas' actions and saying the IDF are no better. If you had to leave your baby, or even teenage daughter, with someone, would you leave them with the IDF or Hamas? Who would you trust to take better care of your loved one? And why?

I mentioned at the very start of this thread that the beheading and possibly rape news was false. It was going around on twitter with stories of some news outlets withdrawing the reports. I was attacked and called anti semitic (I'm jewish).

The mainstream news outlets confirm the killing of the babies at the kibbutz. I've seen first-hand footage of women captives with obvious bloodied trousers. So I'm not sure why you're stating so confidently that it's false.

Gaza is near starvation as I understand because of the blockade preventing food and water. The situation can't continue. There needs to be a two-state solution. But why is it Israel's fault that there are "safety implications" of living near the border? Couldn't Hamas resolve this problem by agreeing not to come over the border and murder civilians? That's quite a lot of mental gymnastics to shift the blame off the terrorists!

Have you watched the videos in this thread taken by the Hamas terrorists themselves? Trying to deny their atrocities because it causes you cognitive dissonance is just plain lying. Those videos show the reality. Hamas are Jihadi terrorists just like Isis.

@Denis44

You’re quite biased in your opinions. And you have a right to be, that is your life. But the tone is very biased and patronising*

You can accuse someone of bias, but I think it's then on you to take specific statements and show they are incorrect. What I have said is entirely factual, you just don't like the facts because they don't fit with your own bias, as demonstrated by the daft comment below:

There are no Jews there as they can have a much nicer life outside Gaza

Any Jew found in Gaza would dead in seconds or held hostage and likely tortured. Even if that wasn't the case, it is a Jeudenfrei zone as per the terms of withdrawal. No Jews are legally allowed to live there. Or buy property there or do anything. There have no rights of any sort. Palestinians by contrast are allowed to live in their millions in Israel with the same rights in law as a Jew.

Which is why I cringe at Israel being and apartheid state. The entire region is an apartheid state. The only country where Jews and Arabs live side by side with equal rights is Israel. Yes, there is racial discrimination (are you surprised?) but it remains true that Arabs live side by side with Jews peacefully and they have not been cleansed out.

Jews have been completely cleansed out of Algeria, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Iran, Oman, Qatar, Saudi, Sudan, Syria and are almost completely cleansed from Iraq, Lebanon, Bahrain and Egypt. The region of their homeland is almost completely closed to them. In some of those countries Jews are permitted entry but are not allowed to be citizens or own property. They certainly could not vote, be equal citizens and enjoy the same rights as locals.

It remains, as always, the simple truth that Jews in their homeland of the Middle East are unwelcome. Peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews and when we decided we wanted to rule ourselves and have equality, they showed us exactly what they thought of the idea. They have to accept Jews are not their subordinates and get on with taking care of their own country.

@Cuddlecouch I agree with this, have you watched the videos?

I think one thing I've learnt this past week is that the 'mainstream' news outlets is really not the place to get the news. I've never seen such one sided biased reporting in my life. They're baying for ww3 and a full scale middle east war. Innocents on both both sides DO NOT want this.

First hand? Are you in Israel?

There have been a lot of reports of Israel-Hamas war misinformation and fake content, doctored photos and videos of violent fighting that originated from a video game.

What DeeCee77 is missing is that PIRA and UVF didn't control vast swathes of Northern Ireland. Hamas controls Gaza.

Because of that reality most Catholics and Protestants didn't support these terrorist groups.

On the other hand, because Hamas controls Gaza most Palestinians support them.

Immediately, her comparison with Northern Ireland is defeated.

The Northern Ireland conflict couldn't end until PIRA was defeated. Why? If the Loyalists had stopped, the conflict would have gone on precisely because PIRA largely ignored them. Stats show they barely killed Loyalist terrorists and also had a deal not to kill each other's leadership.

If the British Army had given in to PIRA demands and left, the conflict would have become a full blown civil war. So wouldn't have stopped.

That left one final option - defeat PIRA to end the conflict. And this is what happened in the end as I've extensively covered on other thread's.

As an example, attached is PIRAs former US Marine John Crawley admitting PIRA were defeated across the board.

The Belfast Agreement was possible because PIRA had nowhere else to go. In fact, they got NONE of their long held key core demands in it!

By PIRAs own admission over the years, anything less than a full British withdrawal and Northern Ireland out of the UK constitutes defeat.

PIRA stupidly believed they could push the UK Government & British Army into the Irish Sea. They thought if they could do that, they could just turn on Protestants and Catholics who strongly opposed them.

Just delusional!

For the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to end, Hamas will have to be defeated somehow.

You're correct, @Thebestwaytoscareatory.

People have been making an effort to discredit AI. Gosh, there are other organisations, news outlets and voices out there that have very similar views. We can be called lefty dogooders, or called woke or whatever. Not sure what’s so wrong with a view that war is not the answer and that civilians on both sides should be supported.Gaza people can’t even leave their country or escape anywhere currently. The Israelis are mourning their lost loved ones. Both sides are suffering. In the meantime US is sending more weapons, Israel bombarding Egypt border (why?). The governments happy with their own agendas. No one gives a shit about the soldiers, let alone civilians. They will just throw more money at people to come and live in West Bank and send more army. No consideration whatsoever for long term effects on people living in constant trauma.

Are you saying videos justify obliterating babies women and innocent women in a cage?
Because there are a million more video based evidence of Israel's atrocities. So where do we go from here?????

Your logic is sickening

Absolutely bonkers, isn't it?

These same people saying 'don't call Hamas animals' - go and live under Hamas rule then, and see how you like it. Stupidity in its purest form. Supporting people who would kill up and your family given half a chance.

You are writing your own posts here

Your words are unrelated to my post.

There are a few posters denying the atrocities have occurred, including you. @BlurredEdges posted some links for you upthread

Yeah, someone can be biased and still be right. For any claim of bias to work I'm a debate, you do have to demonstrate how someone is wrong.

Failure to do so means you'll be relying on a "You're Biased!" Logical Fallacy which is n error in reasoning.

Good point, @LemonyTicket !

That’s also not true though. Palestinians don’t have the same rights, are not allowed free movement for instance. Need special permissions to get to hospital. There are women dying in labour in checkpoints because of this. I could go on…
I’m not disagreeing you in all your points, but I think you’re right a right wing person and a product of your upbringing as we all are.

@coffeeaddict77 yes the video game was the shooting down of a helicopter.
I've not heard of a video game that shows a woman, wrists bound, with her back area covered in blood. Or of a dead woman with distinctive leg tattoos, limbs at unnatural angles, being driven around on the back of a pickup truck while people praise god and spit on her.

Stop telling us what Jewish people think if you're not Jewish yourself.

@DownNative are you paid by the DUP to find every single thread on mumsnet relating to Northern Ireland? Give it a rest. This thread isn't about that.

I have to comment on one thing you said though because it's unfair. Frank McGuigan might be relevant to Amensty International because it's an organisation against torture and he was interned by the British state without trial and tortured by the British state. You don't admit that there was any British wrongdoing in Northern Ireland so I don't expect you to listen to me, but I had to give the other side.

I’m sorry you think there is a ‘context’ to a young woman being brutally anally gang raped. I am sorry you think there is a ‘context’ to a young women lying naked and unconscious or dead on a truck whilst men cheer and spit on her.

I am sorry you think you are a good and reasonable person for concentrating on this ‘context’.

You are instead someone who has deliberately blinded themselves to what you have seen.

@Marmite17

I totally agree. I do believe that @LemonyTicketthat what happened to your family is awful. And that your research is valid. It doesn't mean though that this situation, also arising from oppression, isn't exactly the same.
I'm really sorry for what happened to your family

It is not remotely the same.

Over the generations my Jewish family were subjugated, oppressed and stripped of property and even murdered until there was almost no one left - these things were VERY different:

• We NEVER had our own sovereign state or even the offer of it. There was nowhere we could go, no choices, nothing could be done. This situation is completely different. Hamas HAVE their own sovereign state that they live in. No one is stopping them farming, creating jobs, treating themselves as equals, investing in infrastructure - they have just decided they are more interested in terrorism.

• We were oppressed by the majority who ruled over us. They are being OPRESSED by THEMSELVES! The Palestinians are the ones who govern Palestinians. They get to decide their laws and who gets what for themselves. We were in servitude.

• We did not commit acts of terror of any kind. 3000 years of genocide and being the most persecuted human beings on earth and we never turned to violence. We were passive people and did not behave in the ways, which clearly fuel the oppression they claim. You cannot continually try and murder your neighbour and then ask them for a job and food. This is just not legitimate.

If we could rewind history, my family would all have jumped at the chance of a sovereign state and they would have taken that gift and farmed and built villages and grown communities and made something good of it. This doesn't arise from oppression. Oppression is created from a situation which could easily have been two peaceful countries, because they just cannot accept Jews having a country too.

There are Jewish posters on this site. You can read their views here

But most of those people are children, about half of the population there. The average age is incredibly young. How many of those suffering now elected anyone way back in 2006?