To be sickened by Hamas

[MindfullyAmazedHorse]

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

@Threemangoes

For the fourth time you have made up a fictional genocide. Genocide is defined as:

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

As I have shown, the population of Palestinians has increased 480% since 1947 (and the global average over the same time period is 300%).

The Palestinian population in Israel alone has more or less doubled over that time period, from 1 million to 2 million.

The data on civilian deaths by Israel against Palestinians is about 160 per year. That is 0.0022857. Almost all of which are in defence of attacks.

If it were "genocide" it would be the shittest attempt of which I have ever heard.

There are no Jews in Gaza. Zero. Because if there were, they would all be killed. Because one side actually does want to enact genocide. They are outright saying that, joyously, and you are wilfully ignoring them.

@Denis44

It’s quite a simplistic view written in a quite patronising tone. There are organisations like amnesty international who don’t agree with you. Can I ask what are your credentials?
Amnesty International are a 'human rights' organisation who support prostitution because disabled men's rights to access women's bodies for sex is more important to them than women's human rights. Amnesty International are a 'human rights' organisation who gave placards to protestors at an International women's rights conference, that has a heavy focus on male violence against women, and lesbian rights. Amnesty International are an organisation that claims women's oppression is nothing to do with their sexed bodies despite citing their work on contraceptive and abortion rights and intimate partner violence. Yet none of this is to do with women's bodies, apparently. I've repeatedly asked them to explain how this is not to do with women's sexed bodies and they refuse to answer.

Amnesty International are an appalling ideologically captured organisation, that should not be taken as an authority on anything as they will ignore reality and evidence to shore up their propaganda.

There are no Jews there as they can have a much nicer life outside Gaza as well. I don’t think anyone would want to live there with no access to clean water to start with. You’re quite biased in your opinions. And you have a right to be, that is your life. But the tone is very biased and patronising.
Amnesty International is calling both sides to protect the civilians, I’m not sure how they are siding with Hamas.
Palestinian civilians are the underdog and the biggest victims in all of it, as well as Israelis who have been encouraged to settle near Gaza border and have been subsidised to live there by the government with an agenda and not considering safety implications.

‘There is so much antisemitism dressed up in whataboutery on these threads about Israel.’

it’s not working anymore, claiming that criticism of the actions of the Israeli state is ‘antisemitism’.
I don’t for a second think that they represent all those of Jewish faith any more than I think Al Qaida did Muslims or the UVF do all Protestants.

@Givemepeas

I’m never for a second believed any of the beheaded babies/ rape stories.
Appalling though the Hamas attack is - they’re attacking like an army, organised, trained ‘professional’

No. Armies attack soldiers. They do not attack civilians. They do not deliberately target non combatants. They do not kill the elderly and children deliberately. They do not kidnap women and kids. They do not murder young women and parade their nude body through town in jovial celebration while spitting on her corpse and filming it for her family to watch. They do not video themselves killing a Grandmother and upload it to the Grandmother's facebook wall so the family can watch her murder. I personally watched a video of them behead one man - a civilian.

There is no question they will be raping women. No question of any sort. These are people who strap suicide bombs to children. They are not an "army" they are terrorists - worse than ISIS. They are depraved evil personified. We are not dehumanising them - they are NOT HUMAN.

The difference between you and me, is that I would never look at the suffering of that the Palestinian people are now going through and say, ' Well what do you expect, its understandable and both sides and what about the Israelis' Because I would realise that is disgusting and offensive thing to do.

I doubt many, if any, of the people on this thread and others who are looking at the massacre of Israelis and are saying ' well its understandable and both sides and what about.. ' will be saying the same when they look at the current suffering of the Palestinians, will they?

And there's a reason they will only be saying that about one side, isn't there?

Will you watch the videos linked or do they pose an issue as too barbaric?

@EasternStandard I haven’t clicked on your links. Should I go and find some horrific videos of suffering, death, mayhem too and pop them on? From inside Gaza perhaps, as I assume yours are of slaughtered Israelis?
what would the point be?
how would it end?
Shall we see who has committed the ‘worst’ deaths? Vote on it?

The only way forward is with talks - not more bombs and deaths.

The point is the barbarism and atrocities exist. They happened

Both you and @Threemangoes deny this.

Watching the videos will show you you are wrong

Please read back over my post and tell me where I said or even implied this?

The difference between you and me, is that I would never look at the suffering of that the Palestinian people are now going through and say, ' Well what do you expect, its understandable and both sides and what about the Israelis' Because I would realise that is disgusting and offensive thing to do.

Maybe others have but definitely not me and I am upset you would even suggest I would say that. I was very clear that I was disgusted and shocked at the terrorist attack on innocent Israeli's never once did I say I thought it was justified.

It is unconscionable to me that mners have to suffer this happening then have posters deny it on threads

There's a lot of support for Palestine in universities. The view is something like 'Hamas only acts the way it does because Palestinians are poor and desperate'. If I try to suggest that there's something more going on in the region that's to do with ideology, religion, land rights, honour etc. that some people hold more dear than simply being warm and well fed, their eyes glaze over.

Also, the history taught in universities at the moment is as was posted above - that while the West was involved in transatlantic slavery and brutality against minorities, that people in the Middle East were living in relative harmony - until the White people came along. Therefore, anything pro-Israel in the media can't be trusted because the West doesn't want to acknowledge that it's largely responsible for destabilising the region or that there wouldn't be so many Jews in Israel if they hadn't been terrorised out of Europe. Jihadists are reasonable people that have been demonised by the Western media because that's easier than acknowledging that white people are entirely to blame for all the problems in the world.

@Denis44

"There are no Jews there as they can have a much nicer life outside Gaza as well."

This is complete nonsense. If there were any Jews in Gaza they would be murdered. That's the reality of Hamas who seek the complete destruction of Israel and death of all Jewish people. Stop with the "both sides" rhetoric. One side seeks the complete annihilation of the other. And the world now sees exactly why Israel defends itself. It has no other choice.

Quote fail. This was to @LetsResearch

I totally agree. I do believe that @LemonyTicket that what happened to your family is awful. And that your research is valid. It doesn't mean though that this situation, also arising from oppression, isn't exactly the same.
I'm really sorry for what happened to your family

Amnesty International?

The very same Amnesty International who was co-founded by a former IRA Chief Of Staff?

The very same Amnesty International who uses Francis McGuigan as part of their campaign against the UK?

The very same Amnesty International whose press release does not say is that Mr McGuigan was also a key part of the IRA’s Belfast Brigade?!

Provisional Sinn Fein’s publication An Phoblacht described him as having been “an IRA volunteer”, adding: “His capture was a serious blow to the Belfast IRA.”

The very same Amnesty International who has had little to say about PIRA human rights abuses in comparison to the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association over the years preferring instead to focus on the State?

Yeah....I can totally see why some believe Amnesty International isn't biased(!) 🤷‍♂️

I think you're being a bit unreasonable here. LemonyTicket has already said that he/she doesn't support the actions of the Israeli government - just the right of the state of Israel to exist. He/she is only picking out bits of history to challenge the current rather rosy picture of "Jews and Muslims living in harmony until white people interfered" that is actually quite widely taught, and which you repeated in your post.

You're missing the point.

First of all, to ignore the context of any attack of this type is clearly wilful ignorance but people on this thread seem to demand that it is ignored. Presumably because the context is not flattering to Israel.

Secondly you're completely ignoring the fact that Israel is committing war crimes against the people of Palestine as we speak and it is only right and decent that people feel the same sadness for those currently being starved and murdered in Palestine as we do for the murdered and kidnapped Israelis.

This is the exact same as the Israel state though and yet people seem to refer to that as an army, interestingly.

I have nothing but condemnation for the acts from Hamas but lets not pretend it is only Hamas who attack civilians, deliberately target non combatants, kill the elderly and children deliberately. It is not a one sided conflict.
The actions of both sides are not human.

And no, that isn't antisemitic. I'm not making any sort of generalisation on all Jewish people by commenting on the actions of the state of Israel and it's supporters.

The Telegraph have a current headline that includes the killing of the babies, so I wouldn't say it's been "disproved":

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/babies-killed-hamas-attacks-kibbutz-israel/

Bombing a refugee camp filled with refugees you are responsible for creating while you keep them caged unable to escape is the peak of sadism and supporters of this are akin to the likes of kkk and nazis.

So Hamas are just some completely separate entity that dropped into Gaza and is made up of what? Iranians? Jordanians? Lebanese?

Would the bloodshed have stopped in Northern Ireland if one side or the other was completely and utterly wedded to the idea that every inch of Northern Ireland was theirs and theirs alone, that they would never entertain peace with the otherside, and that they'd never stop fighting until every single person on the other side, man, woman and child was driven into the Irish sea?

I've never said Israel are right or justified in their actions but, the fact remains that while Hamas are operating in the area there can be no peace. And while there's no prospect of peace Israel will continue to do what they do becuase that's how armed conflicts work.

You don't give your enemies respite and allow them time to organise and plan. You don't spend your time and resources helping enemy controlled lands, you seize occupied areas, take control where you can, and make life difficult for those in the remaining occupied areas in the hope of weakening their resolve.

That's warfare 101, just look at Russia. Putin and his lot decided to invaded Ukraine and the global response was to put in place a raft of sanctions designed specifically to make life for the average Russian untenable. Did the average Russian deserve to be punished for the actions of Putin? According to many on here no, yet there was no international outcry when the sanctions were enacted.

Gaza is enemy controlled territory in the eyes of Israel , the ruling regime have not only declared there will be no peace but, that they will continue to actively try and kill Israelis. Why would you, or anyone, expect Israel to provide support to them?

I mentioned at the very start of this thread that the beheading and possibly rape news was false. It was going around on twitter with stories of some news outlets withdrawing the reports. I was attacked and called anti semitic (I'm jewish).

Palestine deserves freedom, the occupation has to end. How can any sane person disagree?

The Western media is currently knee deep in a blood thirsty propaganda frenzy. It's making me and everyone I know feel anxious and poorly.

Isreal has not just been defending itself. They have been expanding their territory for decades and unlawfully (according to the united nations) occupying Palestinian Territory, They have also killed many civilians including children. Both sides have committed war crimes. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Bombing a refugee camp filled with refugees you are responsible for creating while you keep them caged unable to escape is the peak of sadism and supporters of this are akin to the likes of kkk and nazis.

I used to think this way but now I've seen first-hand why the border between Israel and Gaza is blockaded.