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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be sickened by Hamas

1000 replies

MindfullyAmazedHorse · 10/10/2023 22:08

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

OP posts:
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43
LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 09:02

@itsmyp4rty

I guess when you treat people like animals then they start behaving like animals

No, they don't.

My family were treated like animals in the middle east, stripped of everything they owned, subjected to violent pogroms and subjugation that make what's happening to the Palestinians look a trip to Butlins . Those of my family who went to Europe mostly didn't survive the Holocast. We found records of two of our kin liberated from Dachau. The rest were gassed or put in ovens.

NO, being treated like animals doesn't make you behave like one.

I have no inclination of any kind to behead anyone, rape anyone, torture anyone or laugh about it. That's entirely a choice, and is not reflective of victimhood in any way.

Jews aside there are millions upon millions of people who have been subjected to the most hellish things imaginable and they are not strapping on suicide vests to their kids either.

Stop apologising for these people!

Denis44 · 11/10/2023 09:03

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 08:55

@Denis44

It’s absolutely awful how Gaza people live and in what conditions, it’s a slow death and that makes people desperate to accept extreme measures. It’s such a massive contrast between them and the people who attended the festival and their lives

It's so vital that you understand why, because I think what you think is that mean Israel is depriving them.

They are another country. A completely different country.

Some resources are shared, and that is dictated by the Oslo accord. But largely, they are on their own.

Their government is responsible for supplying water, they have technology to do it, they have tens of thousands of unemployed citizens, they have access to endless sea water and billions in aid money for this.

Likewise electricity and all other utilities. When Gaza was handed over to them, they had most things already. Schools built, hospitals, office buildings, roads, plumbing, infrastructure. Even some agricultural greenhouses were left behind. They were set up and ready to self govern.

And guess what they did?

They smashed it all up. They looted the greenhouses and stole everything from their own people. They smashed up the hospitals. They smashed up the schools. They immediately started launching rockets at Israel within a few days.

They were given materials to build houses through foreign aid, concrete and so on and guess what they did with it? They built a network of terrorist tunnels and bunkers instead. And built luxury malls with swimming pools and shopping malls just for Hamas leaders and left everyone else empoverished.

There would be no schools or medical facilities at all unless the UN intervened and built them.

And guess what they did with their freedom? They used it to declare war on the neighbour and vow to see them all dead and then set about terrorising, endlessly. They strapped suicide vests to children so they could kill Jews. They teamed up with some nutters in Iran and Syria trying to smuggle weapons into the country to destroy their neighbouring country.

They've done nothing to create jobs, food, infrastructure or even provide any sort of decent life for their own people -and yet here you are complaining that their neighbours (who they are trying to kill) are not doing enough to provide for Palestinian citizens whilst the Palestinian leaders live in palaces?

Or you complain that Israel doesn't allow freedom of movement. Why would they? If you want free access next door, you need to stop trying to kill the people next door!

I am not saying Israel is not guilty - and they are wrong for many, many of their actions. What I am saying is that they are really not responsible for the conditions of the Palestinian people. They are living in a brutal Islamic state, and just like the people of all similar states -they are impoverished and trapped by their own government.

The above was response to this

Itllbefine6 · 11/10/2023 09:03

JoanOfAllTrades · 11/10/2023 05:17

Is it antisemitic to point out what Israel has done since 1947? Hamas haven’t been around since 1947! And antisemitism specifically refers to hostility towards Jews as a people, or towards Jews with regard to Judaism. It’s not really correct to use it when people don’t agree with what a government (Israel) has done to persecute another peoples (Palestinians).

No one in their right mind can condone or justify what Hamas has done! NO ONE!

However, screaming antisemitism every time someone points out that Israel also have to acknowledge their part in this conflict, which has been ongoing for 70+ years, is ridiculous and unhelpful.

Is it true that Israel have killed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians? Yes

Is it true that the West doesn’t publicise what happens to Palestinians as much as they do Israelis? Also yes

Why? Because the British and American governments didn’t want their countries to house all the Jewish refugees from Europe after WWII.

I think some people need to read up on proper history, not just modern history.
Learn about how Jews and Muslims coexisted in Arabia in the early days of Islam.

Learn about how Jews fought the pagans alongside Muslims in Arabia.

How the Jews were treated under Islamic rule in the Iberian peninsula pre-Catholics taking control from the Muslims.

The Shoah did not happen in a vacuum.

A quick and brief history lesson for you.

1066 William the Conqueror invited Jews from France to come and live in England, and gave the Jews special status. Probably not a good idea though! The Church (There was only the Catholic Church and they preached that Jews killed Jesus, completely disregarding the fact that Jesus was a Jew!) made life for Jewish people untenable!

1096 French and German Christians, as part of their People’s Crusade, attacked and murdered ~2000 Jews. (Typically these murders were knows as Pograms)

1190 Jewish massacre in York, related to blood libel claims

1218 All Jews in England were required to wear a badge marking them as Jews under Henry III

1222 The Church, under Henry, forbade Jews from owning slaves, mixing with Christians and proselytising

1253 Good old Henry imposes even stricter sanctions against the Jews, endorsing the blood libel claims

1260 More pograms against Jews, culminating in ~500 being killed

1287 All Jews in Gascony expelled by Edward I, and of course, all their property, goods and chattels reverted to the King

1290 Edward I expelled all the Jews from England

Jews weren’t allowed to return to the (now) Great Britain until 1655!

1348-1351 Jews blamed and persecuted for The Black Death in Europe

1391-1492 The wholesale massacre of Spanish Jews, the Spanish Inquisition (against Jews and Muslims), and the disputations led to Jews finally being expelled from Spain (the ones that survived!)

1648-1657 At least 100,000 Jews died in the Ukraine as the Cossacks massacred them

1821-1906 Widespread pogroms against Jews in the Russian Empire

1894-1906 The Dreyfus Affair in France - one of the worst miscarriages of justice in modern history

Then we arrive at the Shoah, played out alongside Soviet anti-Jewish policies.

Hitler used a treatise written by Martin Luther called “On The Jews and Their Lies”, as one of the justifications for his treatment of Jews. (Martin Luther was the father of German Protestantism). It’s also important to note that as well as Jews, also Romany people, Jehovah’s Witnesses, black people, Muslims and basically anyone not fitting in to his master plan, as well as political enemies and their families, were all interred in concentration camps and murdered.

So, this is the backdrop to the whole conflict taking place in Israel right now.

It’s also important to note that during the above time periods, in America, Jews were also mistreated, again due to the teachings of Christianity and the crucifixion of Jesus.

The British have never had a good track record of leaving territories and colonies in good condition and when the Mandate for Palestine came to an end, they once again, left a country in turmoil (for further information, I would suggest reading up in the Indian subcontinent and how independence played out there and the thousands of people displaced and killed due to the British policies).

Now, Israeli settlements have expanded so much that they have also taken over the land mandated for Palestinians, so the Palestinians are now all scrunched up into a tiny strip of land in Gaza.

Because Palestinians now don’t have a country, they can’t get travel documents (it’s extremely difficult to leave Gaza if you’re Palestinian and the Israeli soldiers guarding the entrances don’t allow Palestinians to leave unless they have an exceptional circumstance).

(Doing some reading around Zionism would be really useful as well)

Added to the whole mixing pot, is the fact that there are Jewish sects, such as Haredi Jews, who don’t accept Israel settlement, due to the belief that Jews will be returned to the promised land after the Messiah arrives.

I think that people also have to bear in mind that Christians in Israel don’t always fair well - there is a lot of reading available about this topic if anyone is interested.

Nothing in life is black and white, and unfortunately the conflict between Israel and Palestine is grey, murky and full of bloodshed.

I hope the historical overview that I gave helps people to understand why the West won’t intervene and why media reporting in the West isn’t always accurate or balanced.

Just the number of fatalities and casualties amongst Palestinians versus Israelis is surely enough to make people think carefully about what’s happening over there.

Additionally, whilst Hamas is a terrorists organisation that absolutely does need to be stopped, isn’t the IDF also striking terror in the hearts of Palestinians? Should we also consider them terrorists for the subjugation and suppression of the Palestinian people?

And yes, I have a degree in this stuff and wrote a chapter on Jewish-Christian relations during the Reconquista!

Edit: clarity

Edited

The Ottoman Empire ran a kind of protection racket where minorities could live unharassed if they paid high taxes, accepted second class citizenship and generally kept their heads down. At times the Ottoman rulers expressed horror at the irrational, paranoid, murder sprees against minorities that happened in Europe every couple of centuries. I leave it to people with more knowledge of the history of the region to say whether we can take the Ottoman claims of being more 'civilised' at face value.

But what point are you trying to make? Are you suggesting that Palestinian Jews should up sticks and move to Hampshire because it's Europe's turn to deal with the 'Jewish problem'?

Oliotya · 11/10/2023 09:03

Goodness me. Sympathy for civilians on both sides is absolutely not the same as pro-hamas or anti Israel or antisemitism. It is perfectly possible to care about more than one group of innocents.

Threemangoes · 11/10/2023 09:04

This reply has been deleted

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Denis44 · 11/10/2023 09:04

I see now.. people of Gaza live like in a ghetto really. It’s really sad on both sides really. That’s all I’m saying

Pollyputhekettleon · 11/10/2023 09:05

Oliotya · 11/10/2023 09:03

Goodness me. Sympathy for civilians on both sides is absolutely not the same as pro-hamas or anti Israel or antisemitism. It is perfectly possible to care about more than one group of innocents.

Some people are expressing much more than merely sympathy for civilians on both sides. Did you really miss all that?

SomeCatFromJapan · 11/10/2023 09:06

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/11/hamas-attack-kfar-aza-kibbutz-massacre-israel

Here's a report on the kibbutz massacre from a reputable mainstream source.

I've seen the footage of the raped and killed girls with my own eyes unfortunately but I won't post something like that, however it is all over twitter.

Hamas gunmen ‘killed families in their beds’ at Kfar Aza kibbutz, say Israeli forces

Grim scene of ‘massacre’ at one of the first Israeli settlements reached by militants during assault

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/11/hamas-attack-kfar-aza-kibbutz-massacre-israel

SurprisedWithAHorse · 11/10/2023 09:07

This reply has been deleted

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This is an outright lie that's so laughable we can ignore it. Who did you mean by "they" when you said this was "their usual tactic for shutting down criticism of Israel"?

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 09:07

@Pollyputhekettleon thanks for taking the time to read it and to learn about this stuff. People have such a false narrative surrounding all of this, mostly through ignorance, and the truth was they had a very, very, very generous offer and from the outset absolutely refused Jewish people to have the same rights they did.

Pollyputhekettleon · 11/10/2023 09:08

@Itllbefine6 Dhimmitude wasn't just the Ottoman empire. As far as I know it was applied everywhere that was conquered by Islam, including India for example.

BlurredEdges · 11/10/2023 09:08

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I have seen the photos and videos. I wish I hadn't. They made me physically sick more than once. You're lying. The videos were widely shared on twitter, by the rapists.

bombastix · 11/10/2023 09:09

Yes perhaps we can all talk equivalence when there are Jews dancing in the streets of London taking pleasure in the deaths of unarmed people,

soddingspiderseason · 11/10/2023 09:09

"There is not a single photo or video of you so called claims. But Internet is flooded with dead babies being pulled out of rubble thanks to Israel.
What you are doing/saying is propaganda to justify a genocide."

I have reported this post as there is lots of sickening evidence from the camera phones of the Hamas terrorists who conducted these atrocities. People can see exactly what Hamas are. Yet you defend their actions. Shame on you.

EasternStandard · 11/10/2023 09:11

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How can you post this

People have suffered through this

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 09:14

@Dulra

Why are you alarmed or surprised that so many people don't know what happened? The world is complex, do you know or understand why ever conflict in the world is happening, what the reasons are for it? Most British people didn't understand why the issues in Northern Ireland happened, when their country were directly involved and it was on their doorstep. Israel and Palestine are very far away, I am not alarmed or surprised that people don't understand it

I am not surprised. What surprises me is that they have the chutzpah to sit there arguing with people who do know.

I know absolutely nothing about Northern Ireland. If I met someone who did, or who was affected by it, I would listen to them rather than shouting garbage that was factually wrong at them pretending I knew what I was talking about.

It's very odd.

StowOnTheWold · 11/10/2023 09:14

Oliotya · 11/10/2023 09:03

Goodness me. Sympathy for civilians on both sides is absolutely not the same as pro-hamas or anti Israel or antisemitism. It is perfectly possible to care about more than one group of innocents.

Of course it is.

And it is easy to understand why 4,000 peaceful festival goers less 260 now murdered may care a little less for their neighbours in Gaza than they did a week ago.

I wonder, for example, what must be going through the minds of those that are now captive in Gaza. Sympathy can wax and wane. You must understand that?

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 09:16

Pollyputhekettleon · 11/10/2023 09:05

Some people are expressing much more than merely sympathy for civilians on both sides. Did you really miss all that?

The thread presented the possibility of a reasoned debate - as did the numerous others that were started. One by one they’re being deleted. It seems that anyone who advocates for the Palestinians for whatever reason is immediately accused of anti semitism and terrorist apology. Once again reasoned debate is being shut down and anyone with a different point of view is bullied off the thread. I don’t see that it’s serving any useful purpose any more to be honest. No one is learning anything about the pov of either side because we’re too busy shouting each other down.

BlurredEdges · 11/10/2023 09:16

This reply has been deleted

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Trigger warning

Trigger warning

Trigger warning

Just to counter this blatant horrendous lie told by @Threemangoes

No one who knows the reality already should click on any of these links.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1712003919520382981

https://x.com/DaveAtherton20/status/1711666560547381255?s=20

https://x.com/General_Somto/status/1710632014175461420?s=20

https://x.com/TheTankGuns/status/1710694497389093359?s=20

x.com/EylonALevy/status/1711701442371674161?s=20

etmoietmoietmoi · 11/10/2023 09:17

This reply has been deleted

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I can't believe I'm reading this. Would you like us all rounded up to make a televised public denouncement of a country many of us have literally NO connection with? And where do you draw the line - ethnic Jews, practising Jews, people with one Jewish parent? Jewish grandparent?

@Threemangoes You have goaded Jews through this entire thread. People like you make me feel very, very unsafe.

SurprisedWithAHorse · 11/10/2023 09:17

Come on, @Threemangoes . Who is this mysterious "they" you speak of? Why shed light on "their" terrible activities if you won't tell us who "they" are?

EasternStandard · 11/10/2023 09:19

Mnhq should be tougher on antisemitism on here

StowOnTheWold · 11/10/2023 09:21

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 09:16

The thread presented the possibility of a reasoned debate - as did the numerous others that were started. One by one they’re being deleted. It seems that anyone who advocates for the Palestinians for whatever reason is immediately accused of anti semitism and terrorist apology. Once again reasoned debate is being shut down and anyone with a different point of view is bullied off the thread. I don’t see that it’s serving any useful purpose any more to be honest. No one is learning anything about the pov of either side because we’re too busy shouting each other down.

Previous threads have been closed down because of Anti-Semitism.

My view now is that MN should not do this. Threads should be left to bear witness to the Anti-Semitism that exists and to educate people on its definition.

Rosscameasdoody · 11/10/2023 09:23

Itllbefine6 · 11/10/2023 09:03

The Ottoman Empire ran a kind of protection racket where minorities could live unharassed if they paid high taxes, accepted second class citizenship and generally kept their heads down. At times the Ottoman rulers expressed horror at the irrational, paranoid, murder sprees against minorities that happened in Europe every couple of centuries. I leave it to people with more knowledge of the history of the region to say whether we can take the Ottoman claims of being more 'civilised' at face value.

But what point are you trying to make? Are you suggesting that Palestinian Jews should up sticks and move to Hampshire because it's Europe's turn to deal with the 'Jewish problem'?

If that’s what you have taken away from this post, then you clearly haven’t understood what the poster has said.

Marmite17 · 11/10/2023 09:24

Denis44 · 11/10/2023 09:02

It’s quite a simplistic view written in a quite patronising tone. There are organisations like amnesty international who don’t agree with you. Can I ask what are your credentials?

Amnesty International has been campaigning for people in Gaza for years, quite rightly.
However, as I said upthread, leaders need to look at our security and protect the west. These groups, terrorists, governments are a threat.
Hamas did want a 2 state solution and rejected it due to the poor quality and amount of land offered.
Hamas has a kill every Jew policy. They were elected in Gaza, in 2007 by a small majority in a country in a desperate situation, largely due to Israel's blockades. In spite of being elected they were never seen as a government, and named as a terrorist group.

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