To be sickened by Hamas

[MindfullyAmazedHorse]

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

I don’t know where to start with this. I suggest you go away and read your history because you clearly don’t understand where my comments came from. And you might want to rethink some of your libellous comments because you are quoting things I didn’t say - show me where I said Palestine had a reason to rape and murder ? How dare you intimate that I, or anyone else on this rapidly deteriorating thread, of even thinking that. I’m aware of the history thank you and the problem wasn’t that Israel and Palestine were offered ‘different parts of the country’ it was that Israel was offered a significantly larger portion. Reasoned debate obviously isn’t possible with you because you reach for anti semitism and terrorist apologist as soon as your own (significantly over simplified in this case) world view is challenged.

I’m not Jewish but I have a similar reaction. I can’t even begin to imagine how painful and distressing this is for you. I am so sorry.

This has been a real eye opener for me. I am disgusted by some of the reactions on here.

@JoanOfAllTrades

Let's recap. Someone on this thread has repeatedly said there is a Palestinian Genocide. I responded with the post below:

*1948 Population
Jewish circa 700k
Arab circa 2.5 million
Population of the entire world was circa 2 billion

2023 Population
Jewish circa 7 million (900% increase)
Arab circa 14 million (460% increase)
Population of the entire world is circa 8 billion (300% increase)

Not only is the "genocide" not real - the population of Palestinians is growing at considerably higher rate than the world average*

You then quote tweeted me saying I was wrong with my numbers, but the numbers you gave were just the ISRAELI population numbers.

Genocide means killing. Death. It doesn;t mean you have moved to Jordan. It means you have been MURDERED.

So the figures I gave, as already explained to you, as of the TOTAL populations.

So in 1948 the numbers given are for Jews in Israel, plus Palestians in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. Because there are no Jews in Gaza or the West Bank

The numbers I gave for "today" are for Jews in Israel and the west bank (as there are no Jews in Gaza and no Israeli Jewish refugees). The numbers for Palestinians today are taking into account all the different places they are. Data source is the Arab centre of Washington who put this figure around 14 million as I said (source quotes below) but that was 2021 so probably even more now. I am not spending too much time nitpicking as the point is:

Clearly no genocide - actually the total opposite and an enormous population explosion well beyond most countries or groups.

https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/brief-report-on-the-population-of-palestine-at-the-end-of-2021/

Why won't you tell us who "they" are?

Absolutely this. If Hamas don’t want to be treated like animals then they shouldn’t act like fucking animals. Worse than animals.

PS Hamas apologists on this thread defending terrorism are ignorant arseholes much as they try to deny it. Fuck them.

Most are not going to read it. What I've discovered over and over is that many of the pro-Palestinian side believe false things that are absolutely fundamental. They think the Jews were kicked out/left 2000 years ago, then started trying to come back after WW2 and those meanie Brits let them steal the native's land. They genuinely believe the muslims are the only native people and the Jews in Israel all left Europe after WW2. They have no idea the Arabs (outside groups like Hamas) ever opposed a state for the jews, or why. Needless to say they know nothing about Islam or dhimmitude etc. I think ignorance rather than evil is behind most of it.

Along with the undefined "they", it suddenly strikes me that in no other place would a terrorist group burn and behead babies and children, anally rape women so they bleed and spit on their corpses, set fire to civilian houses and shoot people as they run out and have people respond with "but but but". Only in the Jewish state.

West is getting conditioned to justify the killings and genocide of Palestinians just like they were told lies before killing millions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Pakistan, Libya to name a few.
People learn nothing from the past because of the manipulation of people by their governments for their own gains.

You said this was a protest when it was really terrorism and murder. I've read up on the history (pre 20th century too). You didn't say that what Hamas did was inexcusable. You said: "is it reasonable to expect them (Palestine) to accept that without protest?" which sounds as though you think Hamas/Palestine had an excuse for what they did at the weekend (and continuing now as some Israelis have been kidnapped). It's terrorism, not a protest.

My heart is broken, my people are still finding the bodies, we have not yet buried our dead,

It is absolutely horrific and I am so sorry that you and your country are going through this. I think the fact that you haven't even had a chance to bury or grieve your dead yet is so sad. Your country is in a state of shock yet your government are hell bent on seeking revenge while everyone is still trying to process and come to terms with what happened! Decisions are never made well when people are in this state of mind. The actions are not helping retrieve the hostages' still being held, surely it is a time for calm heads not escalation, which will just increase the death and suffering and put both Israeli and Palestinian people at risk?

The lie that there was an independent existing state of Palestine and that its civilians were thrown out of it in 1947 remains strong. An alarming number of people truly don't know what actually happened.

It sounded like you support Hamas/Palestine because you mentioned 'but Israel'

Sums it up from some people really. You can't discuss the fact that this is a complex situation spanning such a long timeframe with so many atrocities over the years and not simply one act a few days ago from nowhere without apparently being a supporter of Hamas.

This is absolutely false. I've been engaged in 'debates' with people after jihadist attacks in the west, and around the world, for a decade or so. The leftist response is essentially identical. Yes there's an additional layer of antisemitism to it, absolutely, but the fundamental dynamic is exactly the same. That's because Jews are designated as a white, colonial, rich power, while Muslims are classified as non-white, poor, victims of colonialism. Everything in the left wing worldview flows from that categorization and is forced to fit into it.

There is much anti-semitism on Mumsnet. I am not a Jew, but these threads reveal so much about the UK. People cheering violence in the streets, and witless academics, doctors, professional people all pledging their support of these repugnant actions.

What kind of contribution is being made by people who celebrate? They are seeking to divide us, the UK, from one of our key allies in the world.

I believe this conflict will only strengthen the links between Israel and the UK. And I hope that where anti-semitism tries to flourish here then good people point it out as they do here and know that is something not to be tolerated or be subject to whataboutery.

I think the people who voted YABU to the OP's question are possibly meaning that they think it's unreasonable to be sickened by what's happened in isolation, i.e. it implies by omission that they're not also sickened by the past and current actions of the Israeli forces.

It's not that they think it's good that people are killing civilians, it's just that they think both sides are as bad as each other. In different ways. Israel tends to kill innocent Palestinians in smaller numbers over a longer period of time, the Palestinians kill Israelis more infrequent but bigger attacks.

As for the celebrations, unfortunately there's always some people who revel in the suffering of others. I well remember the jubilation in certain Middle East countries when the 9/11 attacks happened, it was a revolting demonstration of inhumanity. But it's what happens when people are raised to believe that anyone not of their faith deserves to be slaughtered.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, many on both sides, I think the UK has to side with Israel.
To keep our allies. And to recognise that these supposedly terrorist groups, elected but not not recognised governments are a big threat to us and the US.

Why are you alarmed or surprised that so many people don't know what happened? The world is complex, do you know or understand why ever conflict in the world is happening, what the reasons are for it? Most British people didn't understand why the issues in Northern Ireland happened, when their country were directly involved and it was on their doorstep. Israel and Palestine are very far away, I am not alarmed or surprised that people don't understand it.

@Denis44

It’s absolutely awful how Gaza people live and in what conditions, it’s a slow death and that makes people desperate to accept extreme measures. It’s such a massive contrast between them and the people who attended the festival and their lives

It's so vital that you understand why, because I think what you think is that mean Israel is depriving them.

They are another country. A completely different country.

Some resources are shared, and that is dictated by the Oslo accord. But largely, they are on their own.

Their government is responsible for supplying water, they have technology to do it, they have tens of thousands of unemployed citizens, they have access to endless sea water and billions in aid money for this.

Likewise electricity and all other utilities. When Gaza was handed over to them, they had most things already. Schools built, hospitals, office buildings, roads, plumbing, infrastructure. Even some agricultural greenhouses were left behind. They were set up and ready to self govern.

And guess what they did?

They smashed it all up. They looted the greenhouses and stole everything from their own people. They smashed up the hospitals. They smashed up the schools. They immediately started launching rockets at Israel within a few days.

They were given materials to build houses through foreign aid, concrete and so on and guess what they did with it? They built a network of terrorist tunnels and bunkers instead. And built luxury malls with swimming pools and shopping malls just for Hamas leaders and left everyone else empoverished.

There would be no schools or medical facilities at all unless the UN intervened and built them.

And guess what they did with their freedom? They used it to declare war on the neighbour and vow to see them all dead and then set about terrorising, endlessly. They strapped suicide vests to children so they could kill Jews. They teamed up with some nutters in Iran and Syria trying to smuggle weapons into the country to destroy their neighbouring country.

They've done nothing to create jobs, food, infrastructure or even provide any sort of decent life for their own people -and yet here you are complaining that their neighbours (who they are trying to kill) are not doing enough to provide for Palestinian citizens whilst the Palestinian leaders live in palaces?

Or you complain that Israel doesn't allow freedom of movement. Why would they? If you want free access next door, you need to stop trying to kill the people next door!

I am not saying Israel is not guilty - and they are wrong for many, many of their actions. What I am saying is that they are really not responsible for the conditions of the Palestinian people. They are living in a brutal Islamic state, and just like the people of all similar states -they are impoverished and trapped by their own government.

It's not the ignorance per se that's alarming. It's the dogmatic views that most of the most ignorant people have.

I was asking a question - I said ‘is it’ not ‘it is’. And I didn’t say this specific attack was a protest, I asked is it reasonable for the Palestinians to accept being made prisoners in their own land without protest. Two different things. You really do need to make sure you’ve understood and think before you sling unfounded accusations.

“It sounded like you support Hamas/Palestine because you mentioned 'but Israel' and said Palestine had a reason to rape and murder innocent Israelis (the so called 'protest')”.

I didn’t say any of this, and nor would I, or any other thinking person. You have significantly misunderstood or misinterpreted my words, and you’re free to apologise any time for your unwarranted and libellous comments.

Why is debate always shut down by cries of antisemitism? It is not antisemitic to see that there is fault on both sides in this conflict. Both parties shoulder so e responsibility. Let's not pretend that not a single innocent Palestinian baby has ever been killed by an Israeli air strike.

I have difficulty summoning up sympathy for people who elect terrorists as their leaders.

Why is debate always shut down by cries of racism and islamophobia? People like shutting down debate, just about everyone does actually.

It’s like transphobia - eg I don’t think male born people should compete in women’s sport - Transphobe!!!!

It’s quite a simplistic view written in a quite patronising tone. There are organisations like amnesty international who don’t agree with you. Can I ask what are your credentials?